Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoilers]

[Oddball]

Love is not just an emotion. Love is a decision to give the best you can give for the person(s) you decide it for. It doesn't stop just because you no longer feel anything for them. It stops when you decide to stop, whether you feel it or not.

I couldn't agree with you less.

[Beoran]

Guest Poster, I think at this stage I'm mostly agreeing with your interpretation. Nothing more I can say.

Paddy, I said it before, I feel your convictions are getting the best of you. Doesn't matter if they are catholic or not. As for love, I'd say the emotion and the descicion go hand in hand, mutually reinforcing or weakening each other as is the case, but note exclusively so, other factors play as well. Edit: Keeping love alive is far more complciated than just being determined.

[Daitengu]

Facts, discourse, and opinion are what make up a discussion. Belief is just a brick wall between people who don't share the same beliefs. Derails a thread just as fast as trolling. Speaking of derailed...


back on topic. I've skimmed through the thread since my last post and, it's really hard to say if Hanako would be better off or not.

It's hard to claim a solid stake in the infinite possibilities of the future. But I would like to think that she is better with Hisao because she now has personal validation that she can get a guy to fall for her romantically. Even if their relationship falls apart later, she'll know she can get people to love her romantically.

As for Hanako getting into the journalism club in Lilly's route, eh, it's been talked to death, and I already posted my opinions on it.

[Guest]

Oh, one more thing before I depart from this thread.

Most of the stuff I posted is mainly my own neuroticism and nitpicking on the subject, and also the fact that I love to argue, and hate to concede when others have a point. Please, please, please don't blame it on the fact that I am a Catholic. There are some really, really more sociable, less bullheaded Catholics out there who understand the subject of sex so much, much better than I do, and may quite possibly disagree with me (as they're not neurotic and overly cautious, and are probably more charitable, too).

Please. If you take any opinions away from this discussion - especially negative ones - let them be about me, and not what I'm trying to represent.

.

Oh, and one last thing, that I am sure is Catholic about my opinions:

Love is not just an emotion. Love is a decision to give the best you can give for the person(s) you decide it for. It doesn't stop just because you no longer feel anything for them. It stops when you decide to stop, whether you feel it or not.

Goddam... excuse me. Paddy, don't leave! You're the only reason I decided to join the discussion since you're one of the few deeply religious people with who I can argue with, not just throw my hand in dissapointment. And don't annoy me with feeling sorry for yourself - one of few good sides of Internet is that you can be a free person with your no matter how radical opinions.

For me when love is a decision for you, it isn't really love anymore. But then again your words are true when I look back at my half - didn't really love her before in 'to death' sense, more like a friend with benefits. But then again I never considered divorce like some of the guys I used to know. Guess we didn't had any deeper feelings to burn out and get bored?

One more useless anegdote: Once had a brief friendship with a sexual idealist, not long after he went through his first intercourse he casually dropped his beliefs and became a voohre sponsor, if you know what I mean. Then again my mommy was a flat earth atheist until she almost died in a car crash. After that she converted and if any good thing blossomed from that, it would be that she stopped chainsmoking. Looking at my lungs today, I'm gratefull to whatever God there is for that. Some things need to be experienced

[Daitengu]

You know, if you signed up you could just PM him, "Guest".

[kuniqs]

Argh! that thing 1 post above me is mine, all mine!

[Paddy]

Goddam... excuse me.

THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE LORD'S NAME IN VAIN! YOU SINFUL MAN, YOU WILL BURN IN HEEEEEELLLLL FOR THAT!!!!!!111!!1!!!1!1!!!
Thank you for apologising, though.

Paddy, don't leave! You're the only reason I decided to join the discussion since you're one of the few deeply religious people with who I can argue with, not just throw my hand in dissapointment. And don't annoy me with feeling sorry for yourself - one of few good sides of Internet is that you can be a free person with your no matter how radical opinions.

Aw... thanks. That's touching to hear.
But I don't think I should continue arguing on this thread, at least not on the topic of religion. This thread has probably been troublesome enough for the mods as it is without introducing Christian apologetics into it, no matter how rational.
Though I would love to talk with you (or anyone else for that matter) about Catholicism privately through PM so as not to cause this thread to be locked.

Please get an account and PM, k? If it makes you feel any better, I used to be a guest poster, too. But actually having an account is so much better.

For me when love is a decision for you, it isn't really love anymore. But then again your words are true when I look back at my half - didn't really love her before in 'to death' sense, more like a friend with benefits. But then again I never considered divorce like some of the guys I used to know. Guess we didn't had any deeper feelings to burn out and get bored?

It's not that feelings aren't involved. That lovey-dovey feeling of romance is part of love. But that feeling comes and goes with time. Why would you base a relationship on a feeling so capricious that it might be strong in one hour and nonexistent in the next?

The word "love" has a lot of different meanings. There's the "love" that is a passionate feeling - like the romance a boyfriend and girlfriend share, or the zest a man might have for a hobby. There's the "love" one has for things like ice cream cones, or a particular brand of soda pop. There's the "love" one has for his friends, or his brother, the kind that would help them when they need help and protect them when they need protection.

Then there is the "love" which a man has for that which truly enthralls him. This is the kind of "love" where one would willingly give everything he has and his life to preserve this one thing or person so it could live on and be happy. He's willing to do anything for this person because of his devotion. This is the kind of love some people have for God, for their spouses, or for their country. This is the kind of love Christians believe God had for us.

The Greeks call this kind of love "agape (ἀγάπη/agápē)". It approximately means "unconditional love". It is partially a feeling. But it also is very much a choice, as to have this kind of love, you have to give it priority, and lessen your zeal, passion, kinship, and enjoyment of other things in order to have it. That is, you have to sacrifice your other loves for it.

Crazy, isn't it? But some people think it's ultimately worth it.

I think this is very much the kind of love Hisao had for Emi. And Lilly.

One more useless anecdote: Once had a brief friendship with a sexual idealist, not long after he went through his first intercourse he casually dropped his beliefs and became a voohre sponsor, if you know what I mean. Then again my mommy was a flat earth atheist until she almost died in a car crash. After that she converted and if any good thing blossomed from that, it would be that she stopped chainsmoking. Looking at my lungs today, I'm gratefull to whatever God there is for that. Some things need to be experienced

What's "voohre"?

There are such things as "flat Earth atheists"??

And out of curiosity, what did she convert to?

[kuniqs]

1.What's "voohre"?

2.There are such things as "flat Earth atheists"??

3.And out of curiosity, what did she convert to?

1. Y'know.. whoore, I through swearing is banned here?
2. More a TvTropes reference
3. Christianity

Won't make an account here, I have one in probably every wretched hive of the Internet to throw 1 post in a lifetime.

[Paddy]

1.What's "voohre"?

2.There are such things as "flat Earth atheists"??

3.And out of curiosity, what did she convert to?

1. Y'know.. whoore, I through swearing is banned here?
2. More a TvTropes reference
3. Christianity

1) OOOhh, think I see.
In future you can be glad to know that swearing is not fucking banned here. (See? ) There's swearing, not to mention nudity, in the game. So I don't know how banning swearing would go over...

2) Oh, yeah, I forgot about that...

3) Cool. And it's good she's not chainsmoking anymore - for her own sake if no-one else's.

Won't make an account here, I have one in probably every wretched hive of the Internet to throw 1 post in a lifetime.

4) Suit yourself.

[Meh]

I just finished reading through this thread. (Except Paddys looooong posts. )
(I don't know if that reflects good on my mental health...)

So i was just wondering if you guys broke the Internet or something.
I mean on the internetz as the post count increase we get closer to porn, sex, and other funny stuff. While this thread is basically started as the discussion of a sex scene and its effects and getting more and more philosophical by the post-count!

Anyway! I was wondering about whether Hanako was better of having rock solid friends instead of a boyfriend. But my doubts got alleviated by you guys.
But now i wonder... If Hisao would have some way manage to make that night (and following morning) non-awkward, would that mean that they go back to square one? I mean without the imminent crisis, the important stuff would remained inside, well hidden.

[Paddy]

I just finished reading through this thread. (Except Paddys looooong posts. )
(I don't know if that reflects good on my mental health...)

that we wrote all that probably doesn't reflect well on any of us.

So i was just wondering if you guys broke the Internet or something.
I mean on the internetz as the post count increase we get closer to porn, sex, and other funny stuff. While this thread is basically started as the discussion of a sex scene and its effects and getting more and more philosophical by the post-count!

You've never been on a Philosophy or Religious forum, have you? When serious thinkers get involved, discussion gets serious.

Anyway! I was wondering about whether Hanako was better of having rock solid friends instead of a boyfriend. But my doubts got alleviated by you guys.
But now i wonder... If Hisao would have some way manage to make that night (and following morning) non-awkward, would that mean that they go back to square one? I mean without the imminent crisis, the important stuff would remained inside, well hidden.

This is a good question.

I think we all agree... yes. Something had to get thrown out of whack and somebody had to be thrown off guard and question the situation before it could improve.

[Guest Poster]

But now i wonder... If Hisao would have some way manage to make that night (and following morning) non-awkward, would that mean that they go back to square one? I mean without the imminent crisis, the important stuff would remained inside, well hidden.

If Hisao had managed the night and morning after non-awkward, he and Hanako might have started a relationship like Hisao initially had with Emi, good on the surface, yet distant underneath. They'd still be acting. The sex itself didn't fix their relationship, the mutual venting in the park that came as a result did. Without Hanako's story about how she stopped believing in friendship, why she disliked her birthday and why she initiated sex with Hisao, Hanako's actions and behavior would keep way too many variables for Hisao to figure out. Without Hisao admitting he once saw her as a ward, but not anymore, explaining why he seemed more distant after Lilly's phone call and especially stating he'd support her in return for support on her part, Hanako'd never completely trust Hisao.

Their bond was shaky due to their mutual insecurities. It needed to be knocked down and rebuild from the ground up. The park scene was essential in giving their relationship a chance to work in the long run. Without the events that lead to that scene their relationship wouldn't have had a chance.

[Beoran]

Actually I think that in this case, they also would have continued their relationship, especially if they confessed . But there would be much more difficulties in the future. If Hisao was telling her "I love you, I love you, I love you!" during or after sex she'd most likely confess her feelings too and say she loved him too. And Hanako would think that sex was the thing that made this happen... all this sets them up for a long term relationship that, while sustainable, would also not be very happy.

After that, they'd most likely start a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship, but Hisao would keep white knighting Hanako, perhaps even more, and and Hanako, while happy with being loved and loving, would resent this. She would probably alternate between being loving to Hisao, being insecure and feeling inadequate, being angry at Hidao with angry outbursts and perhaps even a few slaps from time to time, and then having the same kind of sex with him again to "make up" and to keep him close. Even though they both would have felt a lack of real closeness, they would start to think that that's how their relationship just happens to be, and stick to that pattern. It's hard to say if Hisao would have hung in there, but due to his sense of duty, I think it's not unlikely he would have. I even see them end up married, with Hanako being the typical "angry wife", and Hisao becoming the husband who always gets scolded.

All in all it was much better that Hisao felt the awkwardness of their relationship though their physical act, and that it was enough to make him think deeply about what he did wrong, and in turn, his doubts, led Hanako to be honest about her feelings too. They could open up to each other and start again in a much healthier way, that will probably lead them to a much brighter future.

[Guest Poster]

I don't see Hanako being an "angry wife". Hanako's not someone who gets angry unless she gets pushed WAY past her limits. Her defense against stuff is usually to flee, rather than fight. So in a shaky relationship, she'd just get like she was on her birthday...distant, depressed, not feeling up to anything and just wanting to be left alone.

[Beoran]

Guest Poster,

I feel that it's not only about "how far" you push a person. For some people it's also about "how long" you push them. Sometimes, you don't need to push certain people very much at all, as long as you consistently do it, they will slowly get angrier and angrier, until they lash out.

However, I'll concede that Hanako probably isn't such a person. However, I think that only means that the bad cyclical relationship would be slightly different. Basically they'd end up repeating a cycle of love, followed by depresion, followed by awkward sex to compensate. So Hanako and Hisao would end up being end up being the depressed wife and the overprotective husband in stead.