The Hanako Thread - Spoilers, obviously

[Bagheera]

As I said previously, I think this Hisao bashing is unwarranted. I also think it's particularly demeaning to Hanako, treating her as if she's some weak helpless little thing who couldn't possibly make her wishes known. She closed the blinds, locked the door, and stripped naked for the guy -- her intent at that point was abundantly clear, and it left Hisao with the choice of taking what she offered or shooting her down. He took the former option and handled it with all the finesse of a gorilla, and that's to be expected when you force an introverted virgin with self-esteem issues to take the initiative. I'm actually surprised he handled it as well as he did; Hanako seemed to be enjoying herself for awhile at the end, and I know plenty of women who would have given a lot to have it as good their first time around.

With that out of the way, here's my basic problem with the scene: Hanako went too far. I really have trouble believing she'd strip down like that to tell Hisao her story. It's not impossible, mind; people do sometimes take drastic actions that are completely out of character when they're desperate. But I don't think she was that desperate. Frustrated, yes, but not desperate. IMO it would have made a lot more sense, and been a lot more believable, to just take off her blouse and stop there. This is enough to make the point, and to say to Hisao "here I am, can you deal with it?" without forcing things to go places neither of them were ready to explore. At that point Hisao could respond with light touches, kisses, heavy petting, whatever -- just enough to show her he's serious -- and leave the rest for later (say, after they've sorted things out and are ready to become a couple).

Basically, she forced the matter to become an all or nothing issue, when it could have been a lot more measured and healthy. But on the upside she got what she wanted, so there's that I guess.

[themocaw]

So both Hisao and Hanako were acting impulsively, without the best judgement, thinking rashly and without the best consideration for the consequences?

*ahem* teenagers *ahem*.

[Bagheera]

So both Hisao and Hanako were acting impulsively, without the best judgement, thinking rashly and without the best consideration for the consequences?

*ahem* teenagers *ahem*.

I'd totally be with you on that if not for Hanako's particular insecurities. That's what had me scratching my head. But past that it all more or less made sense, yeah.

[Brogurt]

As I said previously, I think this Hisao bashing is unwarranted. I also think it's particularly demeaning to Hanako, treating her as if she's some weak helpless little thing who couldn't possibly make her wishes known.

The problem was not that they fucked. It's that Hisao acted like a goddamned troglodyte prior to and during the encounter.

She closed the blinds, locked the door, and stripped naked for the guy -- her intent at that point was abundantly clear, and it left Hisao with the choice of taking what she offered or shooting her down.

Yeah I mean it's not like he already did the exact same thing for her without turning it into fornication or anything.

He took the former option and handled it with all the finesse of a gorilla, and that's to be expected when you force an introverted virgin with self-esteem issues to take the initiative.

this royal FUBAR was beyond what could happen due to virgin inexperience

I'm actually surprised he handled it as well as he did; Hanako seemed to be enjoying herself for awhile at the end, and I know plenty of women who would have given a lot to have it as good their first time around.

Do I have to fucking go quote diving again? I don't even know how you could type this with a straight face.

Yes I am mad.

[Bagheera]

The problem was not that they fucked.

No, that was exactly the problem. They shouldn't have fucked. It wasn't necessary at that point and they weren't ready for it.

Yeah I mean it's not like he already did the exact same thing for her without turning it into fornication or anything.

Except he didn't. That's why Hanako did what she did.

this royal FUBAR was beyond what could happen due to virgin inexperience.

There was no FUBAR. Things worked out just peachy in the end, and recovered wonderfully.

Yes I am mad.

Obviously, but that doesn't mean you're right. Take a chill pill, read it again, and give Hanako some fucking agency for a change. She had a lot more control in that encounter than you seem to think she did.

[Rivan]

2/2

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Read these. Tell me what you see.
The master of romance hard at work, I'd imagine?

I've reread the scene while posting my last post. I'm still seeing what I was seeing even without re-reading it. An awkward, hormone-driven teenager male trying to have sex with an even more awkward girl that is desperate for affection.
At the wrong moment.
Not exactly the way it should be.
It could've gone better.
He should do a couple of things differently, and could do some of them even if he wasn't exactly well-informed.

But I don't see rape, troglodytes, "fucking", or any of the things you seem to make Hisao or the scene out to be.
I guess our perception of this is vastly different, or you really do treat Hanako like some holy object.

As I said previously, I think this Hisao bashing is unwarranted. I also think it's particularly demeaning to Hanako, treating her as if she's some weak helpless little thing who couldn't possibly make her wishes known. She closed the blinds, locked the door, and stripped naked for the guy -- her intent at that point was abundantly clear, and it left Hisao with the choice of taking what she offered or shooting her down. He took the former option and handled it with all the finesse of a gorilla, and that's to be expected when you force an introverted virgin with self-esteem issues to take the initiative. I'm actually surprised he handled it as well as he did; Hanako seemed to be enjoying herself for awhile at the end, and I know plenty of women who would have given a lot to have it as good their first time around.

With that out of the way, here's my basic problem with the scene: Hanako went too far. I really have trouble believing she'd strip down like that to tell Hisao her story. It's not impossible, mind; people do sometimes take drastic actions that are completely out of character when they're desperate. But I don't think she was that desperate. Frustrated, yes, but not desperate. IMO it would have made a lot more sense, and been a lot more believable, to just take off her blouse and stop there. This is enough to make the point, and to say to Hisao "here I am, can you deal with it?" without forcing things to go places neither of them were ready to explore. At that point Hisao could respond with light touches, kisses, heavy petting, whatever -- just enough to show her he's serious -- and leave the rest for later (say, after they've sorted things out and are ready to become a couple).

Basically, she forced the matter to become an all or nothing issue, when it could have been a lot more measured and healthy. But on the upside she got what she wanted, so there's that I guess.

Overall, I have to agree with what you said, but in a way, Hanako was desperate. From her point of view, things were not moving forward - actually, they might've been moving backwards - and she was still struck with Hisao as her knight-protector, or older-brother-kind-of-friend at best. Given her very low self-esteem and the fact that in her path Hisao gets along quite well with Lilly, Yuuko, Miki and possibly Mischa (depending on your playing on the route), all of whom could be seen by Hanako as potential rivals and (again, given her low self esteem) probably more attractive to Hisao than she is, I can certainly see her getting desperate.

But she knew what she was doing, so I still don't get the rape accusations. Nor total Hisao bashing.

[Brogurt]

Except he didn't. That's why Hanako did what she did.

He took the initiative to show her his scar and tell her his story. They did not fuck. She reciprocated. He decided to fuck.

There was no FUBAR. Things worked out just peachy in the end, and recovered wonderfully.

The R was supposed to stand for recognition, not repair. Face it, the scene was so far removed from anything else in the game that it was nothing short of surreal. It's like the devs just wanted to put something in the game that's so controversial and stupid that people would argue over it nonstop.

read it again

Do I have to fucking go quote diving again?

She had a lot more control in that encounter than you seem to think she did.

You act like since she showed her scars to him he absolutely had to fuck her, and had no choice.

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[Yotsuyasan]

I've already said I didn't find the scene unrealistic. And I don't see anything non-consentual. But that doesn't mean I wish it hadn't happened. Of course, in retrospect, I am sure that Hisao and Hanako wish that it hadn't happened, either. Or rather, hadn't happened that way. I wish they had had sex, not because Hanako felt a need to prove to Hisao that she was a woman and change his perception of her, but because they loved each other and wanted to share themselves with each other. Mind you, the story did need something uncomfortable to happen between them to get to the scene in the park, and that is how the awkward sex fit into the story. I previously mentioned I think a smaller scale version of Hanako's "Bad End" angry time could have also been used as a lead-in to the awkwardness and the park scene... but that's not the story we were told and all of the after-the-fact suggestions in the world won't change that. I did enjoy Hanako's story as it was... but I still wish she had maybe stood up for herself a bit rather then just had sex with Hisao out of a sense that it needed to be done for things to change.

Although I will add... I was discussing this with a friend of mine who has also been playing the game since I'd mentioned it to her, and while she did like my possible alternative, as a former teenage girl herself, she did think it a realistically stupid thing that one might do.

[Brogurt]

you really do treat Hanako like some holy object.

I suppose that if I were to have sex with a holy object that has feelings, mind you, I would try to make it feel appreciated and like less than a fleshlight. Hugging, caressing, communication, telling it [those three words], etc. But I guess that's not even remotely likely, or infinitesimally likely, or even within any fucking realm of possibility, because lolhormones.

For that matter is Hisao still "hormonally enraged" after the sex? Or was there something else short of retardation that kept him from doing something more than staying silent and falling alseep at arm's length.

[A Humbled Fan]

you really do treat Hanako like some holy object.

I suppose that if I were to have sex with a holy object that has feelings, mind you, I would try to make it feel appreciated and like less than a fleshlight. Hugging, caressing, communication, telling it [those three words], etc. But I guess that's not even remotely likely, or infinitesimally likely, or even within any fucking realm of possibility, because lolhormones.

Agreed

[Rivan]

you really do treat Hanako like some holy object.

I suppose that if I were to have sex with a holy object that has feelings, mind you, I would try to make it feel appreciated and like less than a fleshlight. Hugging, caressing, communication, telling it [those three words], etc. But I guess that's not even remotely likely, or infinitesimally likely, or even within any fucking realm of possibility, because lolhormones.

Talking to you feels like you're covered in springs. It doesn't matter how much I try to explain or elaborate on a point, or who does it, all these things just bounce off you and yet you somehow expect us to accept your interpretation of things without questioning it.

Except he didn't. That's why Hanako did what she did.

He took the initiative to show her his scar and tell her his story. They did not fuck. She reciprocated. He decided to fuck.

There was no FUBAR. Things worked out just peachy in the end, and recovered wonderfully.

The R was supposed to stand for recognition, not repair. Face it, the scene was so far removed from anything else in the game that it was nothing short of surreal. It's like the devs just wanted to put something in the game that's so controversial and stupid that people would argue over it nonstop.

read it again

Do I have to fucking go quote diving again?

She had a lot more control in that encounter than you seem to think she did.

You act like since she showed her scars to him he absolutely had to fuck her, and had no choice.

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1.He went to her room, said he's not going to do anything weird, and then explained just what the hell's he doing. Then, he has shown his chest and that was it.
She dragged him to her room, closed everything, pulled everything so no one could see, stripped to her pants and stockings with admitted, actual knowledge as to what this could lead to. Surely you see at least a shade of difference.

2. It's not. It is a fitting scene if you even bother trying to perceive it from a different angle. It was admittedly made to be awkward and served it's purpose. It was a last-resort tactic on Hanako's part, almost backfired, but served it's purpose.

3. Neither he nor I are not acting like it. Unlike you, we're acting like this is a viable, possible outcome given their emotional state, development etc.

4. I guess you keep forgetting that it was Hanako who initiated the scene. With actual admitted knowledge of what will happen. Hisao didn't behave in the best way, but the quote-picture you provided is just his White Knight kicking back again - he doesn't give Hanako half of a credit and believes she has to be protected at all times, because she's oh-so-helpless-and-poor on her own. She kind of is. She tries not to be, and does everything to make him realize what he's doing is not helping. And she does it with full consciousness of what she is doing.

[Bagheera]

He took the initiative to show her his scar and tell her his story. They did not fuck. She reciprocated. He decided to fuck.

Because it's what she wanted. That was the point of the scene!

I love the fact that Hisao's failure to get explicit consent somehow makes him a brute, while Hanako's locking the door, closing the shades, and stripping naked for him somehow doesn't indicate her intent. That's a hell of a double standard you've got there.

The R was supposed to stand for recognition, not repair.

It stands for both depending on usage. But that aside, it doesn't apply in either case.

Face it, the scene was so far removed from anything else in the game that it was nothing short of surreal. It's like the devs just wanted to put something in the game that's so controversial and stupid that people would argue over it nonstop.

No, that describes [spoilers for other routes] the latter half of Rin's route, and Shizune's rape scene, and Emi's anal scene, and of course Hisao's night with Misha. This is actually pretty tame given the other routes.

Do I have to fucking go quote diving again?

Please don't. All you're doing is taking shit out of context and acting like it proves your point.

You act like since she showed her scars to him he absolutely had to fuck her, and had no choice.

Correct. Failing to do so would amount to rejection. She set the stage and raised the stakes; he had to either ante up or go home.

Hanako's timid, but she's not stupid. She's not a coward either. Give her some credit, man! Why are you so hell bent on white knighting for her when the whole point of her route is to show us why that's a bad idea?

[Rivan]

He took the initiative to show her his scar and tell her his story. They did not fuck. She reciprocated. He decided to fuck.

Because it's what she wanted. That was the point of the scene!

I love the fact that Hisao's failure to get explicit consent somehow makes him a brute, while Hanako's locking the door, closing the shades, and stripping naked for him somehow doesn't indicate her intent. That's a hell of a double standard you've got there.

(...)

You act like since she showed her scars to him he absolutely had to fuck her, and had no choice.

Correct. Failing to do so would amount to rejection. She set the stage and raised the stakes; he had to either ante up or go home.

Hanako's timid, but she's not stupid. She's not a coward either. Give her some credit, man! Why are you so hell bent on white knighting for her when the whole point of her route is to show us why that's a bad idea?

I am actually wondering whether it could be handled in any different way, but I guess it's partially right to say that this was what Hanako aimed for and it would be hard for Hisao to do something different without making Hanako feel rejected. Although, I think it is possible.

I think we all wish, however, that he'd be slightly better at deflowering timid girls.


I have troubles understanding Bromont, since he seems to present such an extreme view and constantly pushing the other extreme view onto those who disagree with him. I guess it might be described as being "hell-bent on white knighting".

I actually wonder how he feels about (Shizune spoiler) the sex scene where Shizune ties Hisao down.

[Brogurt]

Talking to you feels like you're covered in springs. It doesn't matter how much I try to explain or elaborate on a point, or who does it, all these things just bounce off you and yet you somehow expect us to accept your interpretation of things without questioning it.

>I have nothing left to say so I'll just pull out some AD HOMINEM. AWW YEAH DON'T STOP ME NOW.

1.He went to her room, said he's not going to do anything weird, and then explained just what the hell's he doing. Then, he has shown his chest and that was it.
She dragged him to her room, closed everything, pulled everything so no one could see, stripped to her pants and stockings with admitted, actual knowledge as to what this could lead to. Surely you see at least a shade of difference.

His chest was the only part of him with the scar, you know. Did you ever consider that Hanako reciprocated in a way that was appropriate for her? It's not like she'd like to show off all of her scarring to the whole world. She's shy enough as is.

2. It's not. It is a fitting scene if you even bother trying to perceive it from a different angle. It was admittedly made to be awkward and served it's purpose. It was a last-resort tactic on Hanako's part, almost backfired, but served it's purpose.

>A different angle
A lot of things look real nice if you look for a specific angle. Like the Holocaust.
>It was a an awkward last-resort tactic on Hanako's part
This has nothing to do with Hisao being retarded

3. Neither he nor I are not acting like it. Unlike you, we're acting like this is a viable, possible outcome given their emotional state, development etc.

Hanako made her reasons apparent in the park scene, and they made sense. Hisao never told her why he did so little to make her comfortable or why he didn't tell her he loved her during or after secks.

4. I guess you keep forgetting that it was Hanako who initiated the scene. With actual admitted knowledge of what will happen. Hisao didn't behave in the best way, but the quote-picture you provided is just his White Knight kicking back again - he doesn't give Hanako half of a credit and believes she has to be protected at all times, because she's oh-so-helpless-and-poor on her own. She kind of is. She tries not to be, and does everything to make him realize what he's doing is not helping. And she does it with full consciousness of what she is doing.

>The scene.
The undressing, yes. What came after, no.
http://ks.renai.us/download/file.php,qi ... fS-ZCh.png

For the record, the reason I'm arguing the fact that undressing to show scars!=immediate sex isn't because I don't believe she wanted sex, but because it's on the point of Hisao being stupid enough to not ask for her consent or anything like that. One of his very. Many. Faults.

[Brogurt]

I love the fact that Hisao's failure to get explicit consent somehow makes him a brute, while Hanako's locking the door, closing the shades, and stripping naked for him somehow doesn't indicate her intent. That's a hell of a double standard you've got there.

It's like you entirely missed the part where I explained exactly why the undressing could mean something besides sex.

No, that describes [spoilers for other routes] the latter half of Rin's route, and Shizune's rape scene, and Emi's anal scene, and of course Hisao's night with Misha. This is actually pretty tame given the other routes.

None of those have generated nearly as much controversy as this one did. And it's not like I'm the only one being a faggot; these arguments have been raging since the 4th on /v/'s general threads.

Please don't. All you're doing is taking shit out of context and acting like it proves your point.

You and I know the context perfectly well. By all means, feel free to examine the lines on either side the ones I chose, and tell me that they make Hisao a respectable gentleman. Protip: You can't.

Correct. Failing to do so would amount to rejection. She set the stage and raised the stakes; he had to either ante up or go home.

But did that mean it was necessary to be a troglodyte while doing it?

Hanako's timid, but she's not stupid. She's not a coward either. Give her some credit, man! Why are you so hell bent on white knighting for her when the whole point of her route is to show us why that's a bad idea?

>Asking someone for consent and telling them that you love them is white-knighting.
It feels like I addressed this already.

I actually wonder how he feels about (Shizune spoiler) the sex scene where Shizune ties Hisao down.

I don't. I have not played her path, and she and Hanako are violent extremes.