The future

[ubergeneral]

I'm 100% that KS will be finished. However as for there being another 4LS work...

doubtful. Something like this is a rare phonomina that probably will not happen again for years.

Now it's possible that KS could get the attention of a professional company in Japan. If this happens it's possible that it doesn't end here with the VN.

[Aura]

There's a decent chance there will be other projects and games than KS from us. Why, we already have two short games completed while KS has been in developement and we have had or have currently about half a dozen VNs in pre-developement (don't expect anything though, some are already scrapped, some aren't much more than pipe dreams. However, creative people will be creative). However, another multiyear megaproject of KS's scope is not that likely, I think. There are many reasons for us not commit to another huge project, and not that many reasons to make another game.

As for going pro, never.

[Bara]

I'm 100% that KS will be finished. However as for there being another 4LS work...

doubtful. Something like this is a rare phonomina that probably will not happen again for years.

Now it's possible that KS could get the attention of a professional company in Japan. If this happens it's possible that it doesn't end here with the VN.

And don't forget the complexity of resolving the not-for-profit license KS was created under into a commercially copyrighted one. The legal wrangleing would be intimidating to most companies and the fact that so many people had input into KS but left (or were asked to leave) is also a huge quagmire.
Myself, I wonder if the Japanese translation team might find any benefit in their future job hunting and have a chance to turn pro from KS. I think the chance of getting hired might be a little higher if you were living in Japan rather than on the other side of the Pacific Rim from Japan.

Edit: See the post above for words from the horses mouth as opposed to idle ignorant speculation by me.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Now it's possible that KS could get the attention of a professional company in Japan. If this happens it's possible that it doesn't end here with the VN.

And don't forget the complexity of resolving the not-for-profit license KS was created under into a commercially copyrighted one.

It would be pretty messy. Raita owns the copyright on the five girls, 4LS and/or individuals within 4LS own the copyright to the names of the five girls, plus all the additional characters and material. Even the anonymous person who colored the original sketch might own the copyright on the colors of the girls' hair!

[Bara]

Now it's possible that KS could get the attention of a professional company in Japan. If this happens it's possible that it doesn't end here with the VN.

And don't forget the complexity of resolving the not-for-profit license KS was created under into a commercially copyrighted one.

It would be pretty messy. Raita owns the copyright on the five girls, 4LS and/or individuals within 4LS own the copyright to the names of the five girls, plus all the additional characters and material. Even the anonymous person who colored the original sketch might own the copyright on the colors of the girls' hair!

Heh, I can just see the expression on some judges face when they get stuck with having to decide the case of who owns the copyright to Shizune's "Stop stem cell research" print panties; that would be priceless.

[ubergeneral]

Now it's possible that KS could get the attention of a professional company in Japan. If this happens it's possible that it doesn't end here with the VN.

And don't forget the complexity of resolving the not-for-profit license KS was created under into a commercially copyrighted one.

It would be pretty messy. Raita owns the copyright on the five girls, 4LS and/or individuals within 4LS own the copyright to the names of the five girls, plus all the additional characters and material. Even the anonymous person who colored the original sketch might own the copyright on the colors of the girls' hair!

raita doesn't own jack. He drew a doujn page 10 years ago. We made it into what it is today.

as for your non-profit license isn't that just a legal agreement between the devs saying we don't want anyone to make money?
If so going to a commerical license would be as simple as handing over to a company for them to do with what they want. The dev don't want to make money from this. That was the point of the agreement in the first place.

[Aura]

It would be pretty messy. Raita owns the copyright on the five girls

No. While the legalities around KS are messy indeed, this issue is not one of them. Copyright laws take into account cases where a derivative work transcends the work it's based on by such a magnitude that it will be considered to not infringe the original's copyright. IANAL, but I do reckon KS goes wildly beyond that one doujin extra page.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

It would be pretty messy. Raita owns the copyright on the five girls

No. While the legalities around KS are messy indeed, this issue is not one of them. Copyright laws take into account cases where a derivative work transcends the work it's based on by such a magnitude that it will be considered to not infringe the original's copyright. IANAL, but I do reckon KS goes wildly beyond that one doujin extra page.

That doesn't remove Raita's original copyright. He retains the right to create derivative works, and KS is a derivative work. While KS itself incorporates enough original elements to have a copyright distinct from Raita's sketch, that does not mean that Raita loses his rights over derivative works. It only means KS could, itself, be copyrighted as a separate work.

If you have permission from Raita, it's fine; the copyright holder can grant whatever he likes.

raita doesn't own jack. He drew a doujn page 10 years ago. We made it into what it is today.

Read the Berne copyright convention (Japan, the US, and pretty much all of western europe are signatories). The original copyright owner controls derivative works, and Raita's copyright under Japanese law doesn't expire until he's been dead 50 years.

You really ought to send him a nice letter asking permission. It's easy and it's nice to do, and he'll probably say OK.

[Aura]

Of course the existence of the game doesn't remove RAITA's copyright in his own picture. However he does not have copyright in any part of KS the game and due to the aforementioned transformative characteristic, we VERY likely are not even infringing on his copyright of the original picture. We also have contacted him on several occasions without getting a reply.

(if you actually had read the berne text yourself, you'd know that it doesn't even have the word "derivative" in it and if you knew what a derivative work is, you'd know that copyright of an original work does not grant one copyright over a derivative work)

[delta]

Reality check: Even ignoring any and all legal details, the doujin page in question is from an UNLICENSED NAUSICAA H DOUJIN.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Reality check: Even ignoring any and all legal details, the doujin page in question is from an UNLICENSED NAUSICAA H DOUJIN. You think it's likely anyone would sue over this?

I don't think it's likely at all, but if (as is being speculated in this thread) KS "goes commercial" in some way, copyright issues would rear their ugly heads.

Of course the existence of the game doesn't remove RAITA's copyright in his own picture. However he does not have copyright in any part of KS the game and due to the aforementioned transformative characteristic, we VERY likely are not even infringing on his copyright of the original picture. We also have contacted him on several occasions without getting a reply.

(if you actually had read the berne text yourself, you'd know that it doesn't even have the word "derivative" in it and if you knew what a derivative work is, you'd know that copyright of an original work does not grant one copyright over a derivative work)

I didn't say Raita would own the copyright to KS; KS would be a derivative work of his original. And Berne does refer to derivative works (this is from the 1979 wording):
http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/bern ... #P85_10661

3. Derivative works;
...
(3) Translations, adaptations, arrangements of music and other alterations of a literary or artistic work shall be protected as original works without prejudice to the copyright in the original work.

I don't think this would be an issue for KS as a freely distributable VN, but anything commercial would have to address it somehow. It's good that there's been attempts to contact Raita, but I was under the impression earlier that he had given some kind of OK.

[Aura]

Yeah, if we hypothetically went commercial we'd address it the same way we do now: we wouldn't. (because there is no need to unless RAITA sues us, and for reasons pointed out above, that's not a good idea or something anyone would ever do. (double parenthesis: realistically we'd just spam his mail until he reacts))

[Member22]

TBH, I don't have much of an idea about the legal issues concerning copyright ownership etc... but think about it, if Riata actually had a problem with KS, he would have done something by now. And anyways, if I was in Riata's place, I would be very very happy that one of my drawings had inspired so much, I don't think there is a need to raise any legal issues, its the last thing he needs when his work is the target of this much attention...

[Csihar]

TBH, I don't have much of an idea about the legal issues concerning copyright ownership etc... but think about it, if Riata actually had a problem with KS, he would have done something by now. And anyways, if I was in Riata's place, I would be very very happy that one of my drawings had inspired so much, I don't think there is a need to raise any legal issues, its the last thing he needs when his work is the target of this much attention...

Not to mention the fact that right on his actual drawing it says something like "if somebody were to make a game of this, Raita would be all over it." Be careful what you wish for!

[DovK]

Even if this was in legal hot water -- and it's not -- KS is most likely well under parody, and therefore not subject to the possible copyright on the original work. Works far more infringing and far less parodic than this have been upheld as parody in the past.

Plus, there's no reason to sue 4LS; they don't have much money, and furthermore what they do is, if anything, increasing RAITA's popularity (but most likely not even that). There is of course the obligation to protect your work that often forces copyright owners to sue, but really, I don't think they give a shit.