Shizune/Misha Love/Hate Relationship

[Munchenhausen]

I quite like Shizune. It seems she and Emi are the only ones who actually like to have some fun in their crippled lives, granted very different definitions of fun

[azumeow]

I hate Shizune because she's an apathetic douchebag that made Hanako cry and go into shock because she though it would be funny to make Hisao look like a sleazeball in front of her. I like Misha because she's sexy and funny and cute.

Seriously. As much as she makes herself out to be caring and kind, she knows that Hanako isn't emotionally stable, so what does she and Misha do? Goad her into thinking the guy she clearly likes is making a move on her best friend, right around the annual time that she goes catatonic?

Bullshit, Shizune, you can go fuck yourself. Raping Hisao wasn't an endearing move, either.

[Munchenhausen]

I hate Shizune because she's an apathetic douchebag that made Hanako cry and go into shock because she though it would be funny to make Hisao look like a sleazeball in front of her.

Seriously. As much as she makes herself out to be caring and kind, she knows that Hanako isn't emotionally stable, so what does she and Misha do? Goad her into thinking the guy she clearly likes is making a move on her best friend, right around the annual time that she goes catatonic?

Bullshit, Shizune, you can go fuck yourself.

Hold on there, Captian. It's not as though Shizune did that maliciously. It's not like she knew Hanako was going to come down with a case of Melodram Patheticism!

Hanako seemed to be getting a bit better with her anxieties, so Shizune was just testing the water. It was just to see how far she can go. It's not her fault Hanako can't handle the banter.

"Oh boo hoo my parents are dead and I look like roast beef"

Raping Hisao wasn't an endearing move, either.

If that was rape, I'm the Queen of France

[azumeow]

Hold on there, Captian. It's not as though Shizune did that maliciously. It's not like she knew Hanako was going to come down with a case of Melodram Patheticism!

Hanako seemed to be getting a bit better with her anxieties, so Shizune was just testing the water. It was just to see how far she can go. It's not her fault Hanako can't handle the banter.

"Oh boo hoo my parents are dead and I look like roast beef"

Raping Hisao wasn't an endearing move, either.

If that was rape, I'm the Queen of France

Well, hello your majesty. She created a situation where Hisao couldn't consent or voice dissent to what was happening. By western standards, that's rape.

And it's not up to Shizune to test the waters on a psychologically traumatized student by threatening her relationship with the one person other than Lilly that she's gotten along with at the school, even jokingly so. If she's half as well-meaning and benevolent as she claims to be, she simply wouldn't have done that. It's less malicious than outright uncaring. I honestly cannot fathom how you could be defending her. Seriously, "Oh boo hoo my parents are dead and I look like roast beef"? Are you joking? Because that ain't fucking funny.

[Valjean Lafitte]

Hold on there, Captian. It's not as though Shizune did that maliciously. It's not like she knew Hanako was going to come down with a case of Melodram Patheticism!

Hanako seemed to be getting a bit better with her anxieties, so Shizune was just testing the water. It was just to see how far she can go. It's not her fault Hanako can't handle the banter.

"Oh boo hoo my parents are dead and I look like roast beef"

Raping Hisao wasn't an endearing move, either.

If that was rape, I'm the Queen of France

Well, hello your majesty. She created a situation where Hisao couldn't consent or voice dissent to what was happening. By western standards, that's rape.

And it's not up to Shizune to test the waters on a psychologically traumatized student by threatening her relationship with the one person other than Lilly that she's gotten along with at the school, even jokingly so. If she's half as well-meaning and benevolent as she claims to be, she simply wouldn't have done that. It's less malicious than outright uncaring. I honestly cannot fathom how you could be defending her. Seriously, "Oh boo hoo my parents are dead and I look like roast beef"? Are you joking? Because that ain't fucking funny.

As someone who hates loathes that scene: I hear ya, and I'm not about to defend Shizune's actions in any way.
However -- as rapey as it might seem, it can't actually be called that because Hisao didn't resist. And he could have told her he wanted her to stop through his facial expressions (although he would have had to have done so early on since she keeps her eyes closed through most of it). He could also blow or spit in her face to get her attention, neither of which he's likely to do, but... Yeah, as idiotic as it was of her to take away his primary way of communicating with her, he technically could have still gotten through to her.

Actually, it's really weird that this subject is coming up all of the sudden; just a few hours ago I was reading through some of the discussions that were held on this topic back when the game was released. See, I go through these cycles wherein for a while I'll really love Shizune and think she's possibly the deepest, most nuanced character in the game, but then I'll remember that scene and how the route takes a nosedive (in my opinion) shortly after. I was thinking of making a thread about that scene, but not argue that it's rape, just that it was irresponsible of Shizune and entirely unnecessary.

[Munchenhausen]

Hold on there, Captian. It's not as though Shizune did that maliciously. It's not like she knew Hanako was going to come down with a case of Melodram Patheticism!

Hanako seemed to be getting a bit better with her anxieties, so Shizune was just testing the water. It was just to see how far she can go. It's not her fault Hanako can't handle the banter.

"Oh boo hoo my parents are dead and I look like roast beef"

Raping Hisao wasn't an endearing move, either.

If that was rape, I'm the Queen of France

Well, hello your majesty. She created a situation where Hisao couldn't consent or voice dissent to what was happening. By western standards, that's rape.

And it's not up to Shizune to test the waters on a psychologically traumatized student by threatening her relationship with the one person other than Lilly that she's gotten along with at the school, even jokingly so. If she's half as well-meaning and benevolent as she claims to be, she simply wouldn't have done that. It's less malicious than outright uncaring. I honestly cannot fathom how you could be defending her. Seriously, "Oh boo hoo my parents are dead and I look like roast beef"? Are you joking? Because that ain't fucking funny.

Rape, by definition, is forcing somebody to engage in sexual aactivities against their will. Although consent is preferred, it isn't necessarily mandatory. Hell, if I had to literally ask my girlfriend to affirm her consent before we engaged in any form of the rumpy-pumpy, the whole atmosphere would become rather awkward...
And being as we view the world from Hisao's point of view, we'd be the first to know if he wasn't down for that shizzle.

Being as I'm at work and can't read any of the actual script, I can't honestly be 100% accurate, but I can say I did not get any hint of aggression in Shizune's actions. She wasn't 'threatening' their relationship at all, especially since Shizune probably had no idea Hanako had the hots for Hisao. If anything, she probably assumed Hisao and Lilly had something going on anyway, and didn't even consider Hanako. You're blowing it allvout of proportion, mate.

And yes, I was joking. You didn't find it funny, but I did c:

[Valjean Lafitte]

Rape, by definition, is forcing somebody to engage in sexual aactivities against their will. Although consent is preferred, it isn't necessarily mandatory. Hell, if I had to literally ask my girlfriend to affirm her consent before we engaged in any form of the rumpy-pumpy, the whole atmosphere would become rather awkward...
And being as we view the world from Hisao's point of view, we'd be the first to know if he wasn't down for that shizzle.

Being as I'm at work and can't read any of the actual script, I can't honestly be 100% accurate, but I can say I did not get any hint of aggression in Shizune's actions. She wasn't 'threatening' their relationship at all, especially since Shizune probably had no idea Hanako had the hots for Hisao. If anything, she probably assumed Hisao and Lilly had something going on anyway, and didn't even consider Hanako. You're blowing it allvout of proportion, mate.

And yes, I was joking. You didn't find it funny, but I did c:

He wasn't not down for that shizzle, but he was definitely down for being able to move around freely. I'm at work as well so I can't screencap the exact quote, but in Misha's sex scene he says he wished he could have moved around then.

[azumeow]

Rape, by definition, is forcing somebody to engage in sexual aactivities against their will. Although consent is preferred, it isn't necessarily mandatory. Hell, if I had to literally ask my girlfriend to affirm her consent before we engaged in any form of the rumpy-pumpy, the whole atmosphere would become rather awkward...
And being as we view the world from Hisao's point of view, we'd be the first to know if he wasn't down for that shizzle.

Being as I'm at work and can't read any of the actual script, I can't honestly be 100% accurate, but I can say I did not get any hint of aggression in Shizune's actions. She wasn't 'threatening' their relationship at all, especially since Shizune probably had no idea Hanako had the hots for Hisao. If anything, she probably assumed Hisao and Lilly had something going on anyway, and didn't even consider Hanako. You're blowing it allvout of proportion, mate.

And yes, I was joking. You didn't find it funny, but I did c:

Ah, that makes sense. Yeah, I kinda get up in arms about this stuff, since it's a really personal matter for me. Glad that you were joking, though, cuz I love my bacontits.

I still think Shizune was out of line, but your interpretation certainly is valid. It seems like we'll have to...disagree civilly.

Dear Monty, saying that took nearly three years off my life span, how horrible. THIS IS THE INTERNET, NOT A FORUM FOR RATIONAL THOUGHT!

[Linkarena]

The scene where Shizune ties up Hisao's hands definitely isn't rape. He may have preferred to be able to move more, but he was definitely not wanting her to stop, and definitely didn't try to stop her. And while I agree that Shizune is unnecessarily mean to Hanako at points, and Hanako is my favourite character, that's not enough to make me hate Shizune.

[Gravy]

I don't like Shizune because she seemed the hardest to connect to for me. I fairly really like Misha though.

Shizune was actually the first path I took

[Megumeru]

The chair-tying scene?

That's not rape--Hisao actually wants that to happen, he's expecting it. The thing is, communication between the two surpasses more than just basic 'speech'; you have to look pass that when reading the lines and catch on the more 'visual' signs written between the line.

Hisao clearly knows what she's up to--he's playing along and let her give the consent


Other things I tend to question is Misha's reliability before Hisao can communicate directly since after Hisao was capable, the 'Misha-verse' Shizune and the one you talk directly felt entirely different

[Mirage_GSM]

No. I didn't like Shizune even back when there was only Act 1 out and nobody (but 4LS) knew about Misha's feelings for her. Her own path didn't do much to improve my opinion of her either.

I just finished proofreading the German translation of her act a few weeks ago, and in some ways it's even worse than I remembered...

I don't like her because she's as close to a bully as you can get without calling people names.
She wants to have everybody act according to her will and doesn't consider the feelings of others and then claims "humanitarian" as her career of choice as if that would make everything alright. "It's okay if I am an asshole to everyone today, because I plan to give away lots of money in the future."

Her one redeeming scene is ironically in Hanako's path when she seems genuinely worried about her after her breakdown.

Not enough to offset the rest for me, though.

[Linkarena]

I don't see Shizune as a bully at all. It's been a while since I went down her path, but all she seems to be is occasionally inconsiderate. And also, maybe passionate about her ideals. If that makes a bully, shit, I and people I know must all be bullies, then. I haven't been able to say who my favourite is, or give a list, because I like pretty much everyone. There is a theme in my varying lists: Shizune is in the top 3.

[Valjean Lafitte]

The chair-tying scene?

That's not rape--Hisao actually wants that to happen, he's expecting it.

He wants to have sex with Shizune, he's not expecting her to restrain him for no apparent reason.

[Oscar Wildecat]

I don't like her because she's as close to a bully as you can get without calling people names.
She wants to have everybody act according to her will and doesn't consider the feelings of others and then claims "humanitarian" as her career of choice as if that would make everything alright. "It's okay if I am an asshole to everyone today, because I plan to give away lots of money in the future."

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - CS Lewis

(I wonder if Lilly ever pulled used quote out against Shizune... )