Yamaku Book Club (20220124 Dish Washing)

[bhtooefr]

However, any prescriptiveness in English is along the lines of providing the description and requiring that someone learning the language stick with the existing usage.

Contrast with, say, French, where there are influential bodies that explicitly create new words, sometimes even explicitly resisting organic expansion of the language from outside - ordinateur comes to mind, IIRC that one was an explicit attempt to prevent organic adoption of an English loanword. (IIRC, there's other examples that are to the point where fr_FR adopts a neologism to avoid using an English loanword, but fr_CA uses the loanword, but French is not a language that I know that much about.)

Conversely, English tends to resist prescriptive approaches to expanding the vocabulary - look at the adoption of ze (outside of genderqueer circles, anyway) and other attempts at an animate gender-neutral pronoun other than one (which is clunky) or singular they (it being inanimate). Of course, that specific example suffers from xkcd 927 syndrome (seriously, just look at Wikipedia's summary of gender-neutral pronouns), but hey...

(And, I'll note that I also personally try to prescribe some English usage by simply changing how I use the language myself. For instance, I tend to move punctuation outside of parentheses or quotes, unless the punctuation is punctuating the thing inside of the parentheses or quotes. I also try to avoid swears that have Abrahamic origin (because of the pervasiveness of pseudo-Christianity as a default in my area), but that's far harder, because that removes most of the options that aren't scatological/urological, copulatory, racist, or sexist. I can't even use "bloody", for fuck's sake.)

[brythain]

However, any prescriptiveness in English is along the lines of providing the description and requiring that someone learning the language stick with the existing usage.

Contrast with, say, French, where there are influential bodies that explicitly create new words, sometimes even explicitly resisting organic expansion of the language from outside - ordinateur comes to mind, IIRC that one was an explicit attempt to prevent organic adoption of an English loanword.

*and so on*

From a communications theory perspective, prescriptivity is necessary for the recipient to decode the sender's communication. The debate over prescriptive/descriptive is one that's sociocultural. English resists inchoately because it's too widespread; French persists centrally perhaps because it fears loss of identity. In the sciences, e.g. IUPAC nomenclature, you've got no choice but to attempt prescriptivity and drag everyone into grudging agreement that 'acetic acid' is really 'ethanoic acid' because… logic. But this isn't the same argument as the French one.

From an empirical perspective, the reason that all of us on this forum can generally communicate is that our language learning can actually appear descriptivist in origin but be traced back to a few core prescription-sets sometimes without us being aware of it. The few neologisms that survive are indeed trimmed by general use (and increasing evolutionary rate of change and culling) but the bulk of language learning is still dictionary-driven. Of course, dictionaries historically were often constructed from usage (like the OED, even) but people like Noah Webster (polling his fellow citizens) and Samuel Johnson (polling classical texts) acted as moderators and made prescriptive choices.

Dang, this whole discussion is heading into the wrong kind of 'Classroom Game'.

[Comrade]

nerdsnerdsnerdsnerdsnerdsnerdsnerds

[Sea]

Who the fuck brought actual intelligent to the book club? Get that trash out of here (Or not, I've heard the owner is a attention whore)

I Know what to do to stop all the discussion, Start discussion the fic!

Links up and all that jazz

[Mahorfeus]

I was nodding my head up until Misha asked the Question. It didn't particularly strike me as something that Misha (or Shizune for that matter) would ask, especially in the middle of class.

I liked how Miki flipped the bird with her missing hand, though. Misha's reaction, perhaps even more so. (IIRC, the semi-canon explanation for the loss of her hand had to do with a power tool.) I like how she came off strong and totally blew off Shizune, though I still think the premise didn't really work.

[Helbereth]

nerdsnerdsnerdsnerdsnerdsnerdsnerds

I feel like I'm the one who started this argument, but I have to agree with Comrade. They're just words, people, so calm the fuck down!

[Comrade]

nerdsnerdsnerdsnerdsnerdsnerdsnerds

I have to agree with Comrade.

...or else

[dewelar]

Cute story. My first instinct was to agree with Mahorfeus about The Question, but then I thought about it and decided that there are conditions under which it might actually make sense, because this is totally the kind of thing I could see a group of high school friends discussing when they're bored, even if one of them is Shizune. It's obviously set some time after Hisao got to Yamaku, since he knows the names of several classmates. For instance, it might make sense in either Emi's or Rin's route (especially after one of the non-good endings) or if Hisao survived the manly picnic. I'd be interested to know if Oddball had an idea of when and (since it's presumably post-festival) in which continuity this is set in.

So...yeah, nothing really to complain about in this one. The more I read of Oddball's stuff, the more he becomes one of my favorite authors on these boards .

[Mirage_GSM]

I don't see any problem with the question itself, but I doubt Misha - and certainly not Shizune - would immediately call Miki over and tell her about it...
I always thought the story was set in a neutral path - like Manly Picnic without Manly Picnic.

[Mahorfeus]

I guess I am just more used to it being "guy" talk. That being based on personal experience of course. It's not a topic I've had the pleasure of having two cute girls interrogate me about... I still maintain that it's not a question Misha or Shizune would ask (but perhaps Miki, ironically enough), at least not under the circumstances present in the story. Still a fun story though.

[Sea]

Righto, I've been trying to drag it out to get our last author some time, but we must continue our venture.

Whisky, Saki and Other Spirits by FluffandCrunch (completed, 5.355 words)
PoV: Hisao; Pairings: None; Begins: several years after graduation
Remarks:

See everyone on the 7th

[Sea]

It is time, the meeting begins now

[dewelar]

I generally do not care much for stories that feature death prominently. I also generally do not care much for the FluffandCrunch continuity.

But I love this story. Love it to bits. I'm not going to attempt to analyze it rationally, because I honestly don't care whether my love for this story is based on rationality. This is just one of those stories that I can go back and read repeatedly -- I think this is the fifth or sixth time I've read it -- and still tear up on reading it. Yes, there are hints that it's set in the F&C-verse, but it's done so well that I can ignore them.

Absolutely one of my favorite stories, period. [/gushing]

[azumeow]

I also generally do not care much for the FluffandCrunch continuity.
[/gushing]

Those words. Is it even possible to use them in a sentence together?

Ha, not really. I just happen to LOVE the F&C continuity. It happens. As for this particular story, I enjoyed it quite a bit. The idea of Hisao carrying Saki's death around with him for the rest of his life is...well, it's realistic. I have a few ghosts of my own, but they don't physically appear for me. Guilt's a funny thing, and what it does to you is a lot funnier.

[dewelar]

I also generally do not care much for the FluffandCrunch continuity.
[/gushing]

Those words. Is it even possible to use them in a sentence together?

Ha, not really. I just happen to LOVE the F&C continuity.

Don't get me wrong, I think F&C is a decent writer. It's just that that particular continuity often seems specifically tailored to justify the Lilly-Hisao-Hanako three-way relationship. It may be that my predisposition to believing that it wouldn't work is coloring my assessment, but other writers have convinced me that things I can't otherwise see happening are reasonable within their continuities, so...*shrug*