Limits of Fanfiction - What is appropriate?

[brythain]

I do agree with a lot of this, except for "[fixing] one's headcanon" never being a good reason for writing a story. I think it can be, under limited circumstances, such as a person who has never written anything before who finds themselves inspired to write something for the first time in this way. Whether or not it leads somewhere, putting a spark to an as-yet-unlit creativity fuse is not something I could ever dismiss as never being good.

For some reason, I find my brain compressing 'BEFF' into 'Bad End Fixations'. I confess to a fixation, at least in terms of the Lilly neutral ending, but not to the fixing-fiction-fixation. That said, perhaps all fanfics can be seen as 'fixing one's headcanon' to some extent, perhaps a very large extent.

[bhtooefr]

Myself, it really depends on the way a BEFF goes about things. (That's part of why I was looking for the fic that I can't find, that was mentioned in the book club thread, because I forgot some details about how it went about it. Part of the reason why I suggested it (as well as another Hanako route BEFF) was actually to spur discussion on BEFFs, to be honest.)

In the case of Hanako and Hisao's bad end, sure, they're not going to immediately reconcile. Things have been severely damaged, and to try to erase that would be out of character for both of them. However, both of them have immediate regrets - Hanako may say that she hates Lilly and Hisao, but it's clear that she doesn't - and both of them have an extreme potential for growth from that damage. Yes, it does cheapen the "you fucked up bad, player, you fucked up real bad" intent of the bad ending in the VN itself, but it doesn't mean that an interesting story can't be made from it. (It may take longer than the canon route for Hisao to regain Hanako's trust, mind you... but it also depends on the circumstances.)

Not saying it's easy to pull off, and it's certainly been attempted many times and botched, but...

And, there are examples of partial fixes (which definitely don't count as BEFFs - a true BEFF will try to create the circumstances of the good ending, after the bad ending - some of the sloppier ones end up copying lines from Adulthood and making the bad ending better than the good ending in an unbelievable way) - Reconciliation comes to mind as a good partial fix. It sure ain't fixing everything, but it fixes some of the damage.

And, also, I won't deny that some of my attempts at writing fanfic are attempts to share my headcanon in a way that is more expressive than arguing in the Public Discussion forum about it, although I don't think I've actually done a fix fic, other than an Emi drabble (and then it was just about her WANTING to fix things)...

[Leaty]

For some reason, I find my brain compressing 'BEFF' into 'Bad End Fixations'. I confess to a fixation, at least in terms of the Lilly neutral ending, but not to the fixing-fiction-fixation. That said, perhaps all fanfics can be seen as 'fixing one's headcanon' to some extent, perhaps a very large extent.

Hmm, interesting. I'll admit that part of my inspiration for MTB was a desire for Katawa Shoujo to make Iwanako more than just the MacGuffin she is in the game. Even before I ever got the idea to write the fic, my impression of the game was that there was this very real sense of duality between Hisao and Iwanako, and that to some degree, the two of them were linked by destiny. Not the same person, but not entirely distinct from each other, either.

Honestly, my headcanon has always been that Mean Time to Breakdown is unlocked by getting one hundred percent completion in the VN and then clicking directly on the Act 1 picture of Hisao holding a heart that appears in the title screen, so to a certain extent I'd say that you were right.

In the case of Hanako and Hisao's bad end, sure, they're not going to immediately reconcile. Things have been severely damaged, and to try to erase that would be out of character for both of them. However, both of them have immediate regrets - Hanako may say that she hates Lilly and Hisao, but it's clear that she doesn't - and both of them have an extreme potential for growth from that damage. Yes, it does cheapen the "you fucked up bad, player, you fucked up real bad" intent of the bad ending in the VN itself, but it doesn't mean that an interesting story can't be made from it. (It may take longer than the canon route for Hisao to regain Hanako's trust, mind you... but it also depends on the circumstances.)

I don't like this, and I basically said as much to the member who asked me to give him my feelings on their Misstep fix fic. Frankly, I find Hisao in the bad ending (and Cut Petals, honestly) to be utterly disgusting, and wholly undeserving of a second chance, or even of Hanako's love at all. But then the BEFFs make his behavior even more egregious by having Hisao chase around Hanako for attention after she's already put her foot down and set boundaries she clearly doesn't want Hisao to cross. That's not romantic, that's creepy and obsessive and I honestly don't get a vibe that Hanako's outburst even woke Hisao up to that.

Sometimes you just learn your lesson too late, you know? I've had relationships, both romantic and platonic, where I wish I could have gone back and told myself to stop acting like a heinous bitch. Sometimes even after you overcome an affliction, you can't undo the damage it caused. And as a result, you don't get to keep having certain people you care deeply about in your life anymore.

Speaking as a woman, the most reasonable and respectful thing Hisao can do after Misstep is leave Hanako alone for the rest of her life. Anything else (particularly some of the stuff Hisao does in the BEFFs) is just immensely fucked up and creepy.

[dewelar]

Frankly, I find Hisao in the bad ending (and Cut Petals, honestly) to be utterly disgusting, and wholly undeserving of a second chance, or even of Hanako's love at all.

Absolutely true, and the more I think about it, it bothers me. I know in a VN, you're generally given all-or-nothing choices, but KS in particular makes some of those "nothing" choices go way overboard in the other direction, and "Misstep" is the worst of them. If I had the desire to write a BEFF for it, I would start it in the middle of that scene, with Hisao acting more realistically (IMO) by taking a bloody hint halfway in. Then we would see where the pieces fell after that.

[bhtooefr]

I'll note that the BEFF that I'm trying to find, it was Hanako that was driving the fixing, and Hisao was not physically capable of chasing her at first. (Namely, Misstep triggering a heart attack, and her not wanting him to die, so with the two adrenaline hits (from Hisao pushing her over the edge, and then another one when Hisao keeled over) running through her system, she dragged him to Nurse.) Part of why I'm trying to find it is that I frankly forget how well it holds up.

It's not just Hisao that fucked up (and he did fuck up quite badly - Misstep was absolutely facepalm-worthy and really, really creepy), after all... Hanako didn't exactly deal with things in the healthiest manner, either.

I agree, pretty much any BEFF that has Hisao continuing to chase Hanako, that I've seen, is quite weak when you think about it.

You know, now that I think about it... there's been bad-end fics where Hanako's committed suicide... but I don't recall anyone doing a fic where Hisao commits suicide. (There was one that got close, but it used Kenji to turn it into a full-on BEFF.) I'll be honest, when I've reached that point in a relationship where I realize that I can never interact with that person again, thanks to my fucking things up, that's where my mind starts going...

Oh, and as far as other characters even having the chance for a BEFF (healthy or unhealthy)... Shizune's, the bridge got napalmed. Lilly's, we can't build bridges that long. Emi's, she slammed that door HARD, and there's no chance for reconciliation (MAYBE a decade later she could merely tolerate Hisao if they had to encounter one another). Rin's... who knows, there (and the first bad ending, was downright abusive and creepy - doesn't mean that Hisao doesn't get a second chance, but it sure as fuck wouldn't be healthy), although I've seen a BEFF off of her "neutral" end.

[Leaty]

I'll note that the BEFF that I'm trying to find, it was Hanako that was driving the fixing, and Hisao was not physically capable of chasing her at first. (Namely, Misstep triggering a heart attack, and her not wanting him to die, so with the two adrenaline hits (from Hisao pushing her over the edge, and then another one when Hisao keeled over) running through her system, she dragged him to Nurse.) Part of why I'm trying to find it is that I frankly forget how well it holds up.

It's not just Hisao that fucked up (and he did fuck up quite badly - Misstep was absolutely facepalm-worthy and really, really creepy), after all... Hanako didn't exactly deal with things in the healthiest manner, either.

The reason why I don't like the Misstep BEFFs even when Hanako is the initiator is because wanting Hisao back in her life is a very stupid, very self-destructive behavior, and frankly I don't think her opinion of herself is so low that she would ever try to speak to him again. And, frankly, if she was short-sighted enough to try, it should reasonably be somebody else's responsibility (be it Shizune, Misha, Natsume, Mutou, Nurse, or any other person who sees her every day and worries about her) to step in and remind her why that would be a bad idea.

Rin's... who knows, there (and the first bad ending, was downright abusive and creepy - doesn't mean that Hisao doesn't get a second chance, but it sure as fuck wouldn't be healthy), although I've seen a BEFF off of her "neutral" end.

I don't really hate Shards of Ire, even though Hisao says some fucked up and abusive things to Rin in that scene; Hisao in Rin's route is probably the most emotionally unhealthy he gets in the entire game (and you can see this pretty clearly in the manner in which he shuts himself off to everybody but Rin in that storyline.) Yes, he's almost certainly messed up everything (and almost certainly irrevocably wounded Rin,) but he's going completely nuts as well, and his actions strike me as natural given how unhealthy he behaves there.

I probably say this a lot, but if you were going to write a BEFF from Shards of Ire, it would be best-suited to an Iwanako BEFF, since Hisao's damaged enough as a person by that point that I could see him trying to go back to her just to have somebody to communicate his feelings to (and he already wrote to Iwanako in that route, and Iwanako would probably be a delightfully cogent person to talk to after dealing with Rin.) The question that stands is whether or not Hisao even deserves to be happy after what he did to Rin, and I'd venture to suggest that he doesn't (frankly, nobody in Rin's route does,) but that's never really stopped anybody from being happy, either.

[bhtooefr]

Hrm. Just found the one I was looking for - Second Beats. Not as good as I thought it was, a bit too out of character. Honestly, I could see a Misstep-triggered heart attack causing Hanako to save Hisao's life, but I think she'd still avoid Hisao afterwards, and even if she felt compelled to stay with him, she'd be far too much of a nervous wreck to pull off what she did in that fic. And, that Hisao got a big dose of clue way too quickly...

[Oscar Wildecat]

The reason why I don't like the Misstep BEFFs even when Hanako is the initiator is because wanting Hisao back in her life is a very stupid, very self-destructive behavior, and frankly I don't think her opinion of herself is so low that she would ever try to speak to him again. And, frankly, if she was short-sighted enough to try, it should reasonably be somebody else's responsibility (be it Shizune, Misha, Natsume, Mutou, Nurse, or any other person who sees her every day and worries about her) to step in and remind her why that would be a bad idea.

I thought the problem was exactly the opposite: in Misstep, Hanako basically self-destructed, and regressed to a very low opinion of herself. That is, in the intended bad end, after that outburst/regression, Hanako would be too ashamed and/or embarrassed to ever speak to Hisao or Lilly again in a meaningful fashion. (To put it another way, I thought she ends up thinking not that Hisao does not deserve her, but rather that she does not deserve Hisao. The same with her relationship with Lilly.)

Also, I could see why Hanako's therapist would dissuade her from reconciling with Hisao in a post Misstep situation, given that they would have access to Hanako's full painful history. However, I would not say that it would be reasonably anybody else's responsibly other than the said therapist to do so. That said, emotionally, anybody is free to give any advice they want. Of the list mentioned above, Mutou and Nurse, lacking the full story, would defer to Hanako's therapist on the matter of Hisao vs. Hanako. Natsume, also lacking the full story, would probably find somebody's walking cane and stick it up Hisao's nether regions. Shizune and Misha, again, lacking the full story, would probably push for some sort of reconciliation.

Translating this into BEFFs. I don't think I've seen a BEFF/epilogue/continuation/whatever that touches on all these points. I've seen one epilogue, however, that used the "too ashamed and/or embarrassed to speak to Hanako or Lilly again" as a jumping off point.

EDIT: Realized I messed up some a sentence or two.

[Mahorfeus]

Hisao was a genuinely concerned, albeit misguided individual who on one occasion failed to respect Hanako's boundaries. Not some toxic plague rat that crawled into her room and vomited on the floor. They both came away from that situation with regrets, Hanako for saying things about her friends that she more than likely did not mean, and Hisao for not reading into the signs sooner. When Hanako Missteps, she gives in to her self-loathing and voices her misconceptions regarding how Hisao and Lily treat her. We don't see what happens after that, but more than likely, she shuts herself away, just as always.

Frankly, I'm of the mind that leaving things like that would be the unhealthy choice for Hanako. Shutting herself away from people, misconstruing their motives... that's no different from what she has always done. I somehow doubt that her therapist would suddenly turn around and tell her that Hisao is the special exception, because that would do nothing but justify her behavior. At which point, I don't think it's a matter of whether Hanako should speak to Hisao again, but whether she would. And maybe she wouldn't. Perhaps that is why Hisao is typically used as the initiator?

All of this aside, I like the way Reconciliation did it best.

That being said, regarding BEFFs in general, only Emi and Shizune's bad endings strike me as being utterly unsalvageable.

[Leaty]

Hisao was a genuinely concerned, albeit misguided individual who on one occasion failed to respect Hanako's boundaries. Not some toxic plague rat that crawled into her room and vomited on the floor. They both came away from that situation with regrets, Hanako for saying things about her friends that she more than likely did not mean, and Hisao for not reading into the signs sooner. When Hanako Missteps, she gives in to her self-loathing and voices her misconceptions regarding how Hisao and Lily treat her. We don't see what happens after that, but more than likely, she shuts herself away, just as always.

I just reread Misstep, and... I don't know how you carried on thinking that Hisao's concern at that point was anything but toxic, that his respect for Hanako's boundaries was completely nonexistent, and that Hisao actually learned anything from the encounter, other than that Hanako was never going to speak to him again. I'm also not really clear why so many people think Hanako is somehow being insincere when she says how she really feels about Hisao and Lilly, because at that point pretty much everything she says seems pretty reasonable. Her feelings about Lilly are a little harsh, but honestly I'm not convinced that, by that point, she really wouldn't be better off without her.

I think that Misstep is healthy for Hanako in that she cuts out two now-questionable influences from her life (albeit painfully) and can move forward as a person without being constantly handled with kid gloves any longer. I don't see Hanako as a person who can't, if push comes to shove, handle things on her own. We see her handling things on her own constantly throughout the VN. The bad ending is a particularly hard thing to overcome, admittedly, but the mention of her therapist in that scene is meaningful. It's like the game is saying "not only did you fuck up big time, but Hanako has the tools to get over this, and you don't." I actually don't see that ending's Hisao recovering as fast as Hanako does, Reconciliation notwithstanding.

Plus there's the possibility that Lilly wouldn't forgive Hisao for ignoring her advice and tanking both of their relationships with Hanako, which could ultimately leave Hisao without a support structure, and who knows what would happen then? Lilly would probably move to Inverness now that her "family" was totally dissolved, and Hisao would be such a self-loathing failure that the only person who would even want to hang out with him would be Rika. I can't even see Shizune and Misha wanting him on the Student Council after Misstep.

That being said, regarding BEFFs in general, only Emi and Shizune's bad endings strike me as being utterly unsalvageable.

Your unsalvageable endings are like the complete opposite of mine. I see Lilly, Rin's and Hanako's bad/neutral endings as being the least salvageable. In the case of Emi and Shizune, I can picture Hisao meeting either of them ten years after Instant Replay or Terminal and at least becoming friends again, if not lovers. But with Lilly, Rin, and Hanako, that's highly unlikely (Rin will be dead in ten years, Lilly will be thousands of miles away, and Hanako will still feel very strong, negative feelings about Hisao, most likely.)

[Mahorfeus]

I just reread Misstep, and... I don't know how you carried on thinking that Hisao's concern at that point was anything but toxic, that his respect for Hanako's boundaries was completely nonexistent, and that Hisao actually learned anything from the encounter, other than that Hanako was never going to speak to him again. I'm also not really clear why so many people think Hanako is somehow being insincere when she says how she really feels about Hisao and Lilly, because at that point pretty much everything she says seems pretty reasonable. Her feelings about Lilly are a little harsh, but honestly I'm not convinced that, by that point, she really wouldn't be better off without her.

That experience makes Hisao question everything he knows about her. It's a start, I guess? At that point he knows what Hanako thinks about herself and (apparently) him and Lilly, which is more than he knew before. And regarding whether she was sincere, we will have to agree to disagree. She outright admits that she loves Lilly on the road to the good ending, and I have a hard time believing that could just spontaneously turn into genuine hatred. Hisao is a different story, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that only said what she said because she was angry.

I think that Misstep is healthy for Hanako in that she cuts out two now-questionable influences from her life (albeit painfully) and can move forward as a person without being constantly handled with kid gloves any longer. I don't see Hanako as a person who can't, if push comes to shove, handle things on her own. We see her handling things on her own constantly throughout the VN. The bad ending is a particularly hard thing to overcome, admittedly, but the mention of her therapist in that scene is meaningful. It's like the game is saying "not only did you fuck up big time, but Hanako has the tools to get over this, and you don't." I actually don't see that ending's Hisao recovering as fast as Hanako does, Reconciliation notwithstanding.

I suppose I did not read into her mention of her therapist the same way, because she brings him/her up in the same sentence she brings up Lily and Hisao's "doting." She's lumping the three of them together - that gives me the impression that her therapy is not worth much of a damn to her. Her therapist is just another person whose treatment of her convinced her that she is broken.

Plus there's the possibility that Lilly wouldn't forgive Hisao for ignoring her advice and tanking both of their relationships with Hanako, which could ultimately leave Hisao without a support structure, and who knows what would happen then? Lilly would probably move to Inverness now that her "family" was totally dissolved, and Hisao would be such a self-loathing failure that the only person who would even want to hang out with him would be Rika. I can't even see Shizune and Misha wanting him on the Student Council after Misstep.

Knowing Lilly, that's a very real possibility. And yet, if Hisao feels any remorse at all, then I don't just see Lilly cutting him off. But failing that, Hisao could always spend Tanabata on the rooftop with Kenji.

Your unsalvageable endings are like the complete opposite of mine. I see Lilly, Rin's and Hanako's bad/neutral endings as being the least salvageable. In the case of Emi and Shizune, I can picture Hisao meeting either of them ten years after Instant Replay or Terminal and at least becoming friends again, if not lovers. But with Lilly, Rin, and Hanako, that's highly unlikely (Rin will be dead in ten years, Lilly will be thousands of miles away, and Hanako will still feel very strong, negative feelings about Hisao, most likely.)

For some reason I skipped right over Lilly in my head, because I have to agree, the distance obliterates any chances of that being salvaged. And yeah, I have to admit, the bad ending probably spells death for Rin (looking back, the particular fics I had in mind follow the neutral end). You've definitely piqued my curiosity regarding Emi and Shizune, though. Emi seems to emotionally sever Hisao from her life(as she does anyone who gets too close), and Hisao leaves Shizune while she is at what is probably the lowest point in her life. I know a lot can happen in ten years, but what makes the two of them different?

[Leaty]

For some reason I skipped right over Lilly in my head, because I have to agree, the distance obliterates any chances of that being salvaged. And yeah, I have to admit, the bad ending probably spells death for Rin (looking back, the particular fics I had in mind follow the neutral end).

I think the neutral end spells death for Rin as well. I see her committing suicide in any scenario in which she agrees to do the exhibit, other than the good ending. Hanako's neutral ending could go either way, I guess, though I do see Hanako killing herself in that scenario.

You've definitely piqued my curiosity regarding Emi and Shizune, though. Emi seems to emotionally sever Hisao from her life(as she does anyone who gets too close), and Hisao leaves Shizune while she is at what is probably the lowest point in her life. I know a lot can happen in ten years, but what makes the two of them different?

As far as Shizune knows during Terminal, something she's done has screwed up her relationship with her two best friends, and created a distance she blames herself for. That's an unhappy way to look at things, but ultimately their relationship just fizzles out rather than explodes; all three parties involved wind up feeling guilty (Hisao and Misha justifiably, though sometimes I feel like he never consented to being in an exclusive relationship to begin with,) and go their separate ways. All of them still remember the good times, though; this is symbolized by the stuffed animal in Shizune's bag in the last CG, and I really see no reason why, post high school, the three of them wouldn't each individually find the emotional maturity they needed to go back and settle things, especially if they just happened to randomly bump into each other somewhere.

Post-Instant Replay Emi is a bit iffier, but I feel like as readers we can take for granted that Emi, in any scenario, has enough control over herself and her life to take a functional adulthood for herself. We know that, no matter what, she probably won't wind up a junkie flipping burgers at the Doublemeat Palace. I don't think she "needs" Hisao to eventually reach the epiphany that, yes, to love somebody means that you're not afraid to accept their support.

So I don't think it's entirely outside the realm of possibility that she might finally be well-adjusted in 2017, even without Hisao helping her get there. So, hypothetically, let's say Emi and Hisao both wind up going into the same industry, and some day they find themselves employed by the same company. They've been through a lot of shit since high school. Even though Hisao shit the bed with her a decade ago, I can't imagine a circumstance in which the two of them wouldn't find the sight of each other downright comforting, even if they never rekindled what they once had.

[bhtooefr]

So, here's the possibilities for suicide for each ending, in my opinion, if we're going there:

Emi Good: Very unlikely. (The only scenario where I could see it happening is after Hisao's death.) And I don't see Hisao doing that at all.
Emi Bad: Unlikely, although slightly more so than the good ending. And Hisao's angry at her, not at himself, IIRC, so his suicide is also unlikely.

Hanako Good: Extremely unlikely for anyone. She doesn't strike me as suicidal normally, for whatever reason, like she respects her parents' sacrifice too much to do that unless the shit REALLY hits the fan.
Hanako Neutral: The girl got friend zoned (I know, I know, not the best term for it, but...), and she's not HAPPY about it, but that doesn't mean she's suicidal about it, it's still unlikely. And, Hisao isn't particularly depressed about it, either.
Hanako Bad: This depends on several factors. She may maintain righteous indignation to the point of proving she doesn't need Hisao or Lilly, in which case it's very unlikely. However, there's signs that the regrets are setting in right away, and I think she'll think of herself as a horrible person for destroying both of her friendships like that, and this time it was "her fault" from her POV, not her "friends". That makes a suicide likely - she's never had to deal with it being "her fault" before, and if she's shut everyone out, there's nobody to tell her that the blame is shared. As far as Hisao's suicide... depends on whether he can face Lilly. If he can't, his suicide is also likely. If he can, even if Lilly shuts him out, I think he'll make it.

Lilly Good: Extremely unlikely for anyone.
Lilly Bad: Lilly's is unlikely, Hisao's is very unlikely (he does still have Hanako, after all).

Rin Good: Could still happen for Rin, unlikely for Hisao.
Rin "Neutral": Extremely likely for Rin, unlikely for Hisao.
Rin Bad: Moderately likely for Rin (I think she'll break down and someone else will step in (maybe Emi), before things get to a suicidal point), extremely unlikely for Hisao (it's anger at Rin that drives it).

Shizune Good: Misha gets included in these... unlikely for Shizune and Hisao, somewhat unlikely for Misha.
Shizune Bad: Likely for Shizune (she thinks of herself as an irredeemable heinous bitch) and Hisao (he KNOWS he's an irredeemable heinous asshole), very likely for Misha (need I explain? And she's the only one that's canonically expressed a passive wish to die (nobody expressed suicidal ideations), too.)

[Silentcook]

While I don't quite get why the discussion turned into a likelyhood-of-suicide analysis, I'd like to point out the irony in estimating figures for the so-labeled GOOD endings. I don't know how depressing your lives might be, but thinking about a permanent solution to temporary problems when things are supposed to be okay... well.

[bhtooefr]

Consider the good endings a baseline to compare the other endings to - the good endings are how suicidal I see each character being normally.

Except for Misha, where she may actually be more suicidal in Shizune's good ending, than in a non-Shizune route.