Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

[SpunkySix]

Shizune herself makes me hesitant to look in to the path more. She's just too bossy.

[AaronIsCrunchy]

Shizune herself makes me hesitant to look in to the path more. She's just too bossy.

Must admit, took me ages after finishing the other 4 to do Shizune's, and even then I had to grit my teeth while siding with her in the Shizune/Lilly showdown. I personally found it well worth it though and ended up really liking her, and even if you don't like her then at least you can say you gave it a bash

[metalangel]

What you see of her outside her route is mostly her in 'serious business' mode.

[ProfAllister]

There have been countless pixels spilled on this subject, here as well as elsewhere. I'd recommend you make use of the search feature to see some of the other discussions, where you're likely to find more than enough hours worth of debate discussing the pros and cons. And, as far as that goes, around here, it's generally discouraged to start a new thread rather than necroing the old one. So much so that the mods generally consolidate them when they notice them (especially if they're kinda huge).

I've stated my opinion all voer the place, so I'll keep it short here. I generally agree with the pros that Liminaut stated, but my personal preferences and his seem to diverge when it comes to the cons. I didn't like it at first, but I've come to the point where I now consider it the best route, for the exact reasons that others consider it the worst - it's more nuance than anything clear; the focus isn't all the chosen girl, all the time; and there aren't any easy answers to most of the questions it raises.

[Potato]

I think maybe some don't like it because it only gives you one choice the entire route. It's an important choice, but a single point nonetheless and thus may not be as gripping as routes that require multiple choices. Just my theory, anyway.

Most gripping stories I've read have provided me with no choices whatsoever. I think they were called books. Shizune's route was the closest then to a literal visual novel.

[dutic]

I think maybe some don't like it because it only gives you one choice the entire route. It's an important choice, but a single point nonetheless and thus may not be as gripping as routes that require multiple choices. Just my theory, anyway.

Most gripping stories I've read have provided me with no choices whatsoever. I think they were called books. Shizune's route was the closest then to a literal visual novel.

Then again, those stories didn't have Hisao as the protagonist

[Potato]

I think maybe some don't like it because it only gives you one choice the entire route. It's an important choice, but a single point nonetheless and thus may not be as gripping as routes that require multiple choices. Just my theory, anyway.

Most gripping stories I've read have provided me with no choices whatsoever. I think they were called books. Shizune's route was the closest then to a literal visual novel.

Then again, those stories didn't have Hisao as the protagonist

I'd feel bad if they did. The books I prefer do not make a terribly large fuss of offing protagonists. Big fan of anything where nobody is safe.

[Liminaut]

There's something that Jigoro says during the vacation visit that's been bugging me.

For twelve years, Shizune did not even talk to me, even though I had hired multiple tutors and interpreters of all sorts to try to get her to become normal.

First weird thing: There's an implication here that at one time Shizune *was* talking with Jigoro. Do we know that SHizune was born deaf and dumb? or could it have come on when she was six?

Second, about hiring people to try to get her to become normal: did Jigoro have the idea that Shizune was just being petulant? Perhaps he believed that Shizune's disability was curable. There is some ambiguity about Jigoro knowing sign language or not, but I believe the preponderance of evidence indicates that he doesn't. Normally for the parent of a deaf & dumb child not to know sign language would be an indication of dickishness in Costco bulk (maybe he was in a competition with his brother about who could mess up their daughter the most) but it would make a little more sense if Jigoro honesty thought that Shizune's disability was curable.

[Potato]

There's something that Jigoro says during the vacation visit that's been bugging me.

For twelve years, Shizune did not even talk to me, even though I had hired multiple tutors and interpreters of all sorts to try to get her to become normal.

First weird thing: There's an implication here that at one time Shizune *was* talking with Jigoro. Do we know that SHizune was born deaf and dumb? or could it have come on when she was six?

Second, about hiring people to try to get her to become normal: did Jigoro have the idea that Shizune was just being petulant? Perhaps he believed that Shizune's disability was curable. There is some ambiguity about Jigoro knowing sign language or not, but I believe the preponderance of evidence indicates that he doesn't. Normally for the parent of a deaf & dumb child not to know sign language would be an indication of dickishness in Costco bulk (maybe he was in a competition with his brother about who could mess up their daughter the most) but it would make a little more sense if Jigoro honesty thought that Shizune's disability was curable.

I find it hard to believe that for twelve years, it never once dawned on him (or got drilled into him by exasperated peers) that it just wasn't curable...

The idea that he spent twelve years stubbornly clinging to a clearly incorrect idea (honestly, multiple tutors and interpreters, I gotta think at least one of them told him it wasn't a curable condition eventually) at the expense of any kind of decent relationship with his daughter...Yeah, he's still a dick.

[ProfAllister]

There's something that Jigoro says during the vacation visit that's been bugging me.

For twelve years, Shizune did not even talk to me, even though I had hired multiple tutors and interpreters of all sorts to try to get her to become normal.

First weird thing: There's an implication here that at one time Shizune *was* talking with Jigoro. Do we know that SHizune was born deaf and dumb? or could it have come on when she was six?

Second, about hiring people to try to get her to become normal: did Jigoro have the idea that Shizune was just being petulant? Perhaps he believed that Shizune's disability was curable. There is some ambiguity about Jigoro knowing sign language or not, but I believe the preponderance of evidence indicates that he doesn't. Normally for the parent of a deaf & dumb child not to know sign language would be an indication of dickishness in Costco bulk (maybe he was in a competition with his brother about who could mess up their daughter the most) but it would make a little more sense if Jigoro honesty thought that Shizune's disability was curable.

I don't mean to be an ass about this, but that exact question was discussed a few pages back in this very thread. You're certainly allowed to discuss it yourselves, but it would be a good idea to look at the discussion that's already been made, so it's something more than just retreading the same ground as before.

[Atario]

mardy

It's not often anymore that I see a word I've never seen before…

[russianspy1234]

However, he doesn't have any serious hearth attacks in shizunes arc, not even once, while he has multiple in lillys arc.

medicaments

If you wouldn't call it rape, don't call it rape.

And in Lilly's arc, I believe, Hisao constantly neglects his medication.

Medicament. Noun. A predicament related to the improper use or neglect of needed medication. "Hisao finds himself in many medicaments."

He also neglects his exercise but then randomly goes for a really long walk. In Shizune's arc he's fairly active throughout (not as good as the exercise in Emi's but still) and Misha makes sure he eats healthy.

[Liminaut]

I don't mean to be an ass about this, but that exact question was discussed a few pages back in this very thread. You're certainly allowed to discuss it yourselves, but it would be a good idea to look at the discussion that's already been made, so it's something more than just retreading the same ground as before.

I may have to work on my reading for comprehension , but I thought I saw this issue discussed, but not this take on it. That Shizune may not have been born deaf, but became deaf around around age six, either through disease or accident. Everybody had been debating about the twelve years of silence and how much Jigoro was at fault for that; I didn't see any discussion of the implications of Shizune speaking to Jigoro at one time.

ProfAllister, you mentioned briefly that you thought Jigoro may have been a "Bellite", but it is much more likely that when Jigoro said that Shizune stopped talking to him, he meant stopped talking to him in a meaningful way and giving the barest of answers to any questions. I think the Bellite proposition has a lot of evidence to it.

Some background: Alexander Graham Bell -- the guy who invented the telephone -- did a lot of work with the deaf. He, and a lot of other people at the time, believed that you could train people out of deafness. This belief was discredited when it came out the trauma their schools were putting deaf students through in an unsuccessful attempt to train children out of deafness.

If someone is deaf but has no vocal problems it is possible to teach them to speak. It involves placing hands on throats to feel the sound. (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 540AAWd9DS) The main answerer on the thread says that she hated the training and learned sign language as soon as she could anyway. Granted, Shizune might have had other damage to that would make speech impossible.

Jigoro says in so many words that he hired people to train Shizune to normality. This is somewhat reasonable if Shizune became deaf. It also becomes a reasonable explanation as to why Jigoro never learned/accepted sign language; he has been thinking all along that Shizune would speak real soon now. Granted keeping this up after 12 years is a bit much.

It's not impossible that Shizune *could* have learned to speak, and Jigoro *could* have learned sign, but the last 12 years have been spent in a battle of wills that neither one is willing to give in on.

If this exact point had been discussed earlier, I apologize; in my defense I'll say that a lot of the previous thread was discussions about discussions of discussions.

Edit: deaf, not dead.

[Munchenhausen]

mardy

It's not often anymore that I see a word I've never seen before…

It's one of those words literally only one or two reigons in the UK uses.
You say it to someone a city over and they'll look at you like you're mad

[AaronIsCrunchy]

mardy

It's not often anymore that I see a word I've never seen before…

It's one of those words literally only one or two reigons in the UK uses.
You say it to someone a city over and they'll look at you like you're mad

I live in Kent with an Accrington/Southern accent. I get looks like that most days xD