Which ending(s) do you consider the worst?

[Katie]

Considering that Hisao freaked out and started screaming and throwing chess pieces at Hanako whenever she beat him at chess early in Lilly's route, I'm not surprised that Lilly was too afraid to tell him the truth about her leaving.

[Guest Poster]

I'd really love to get my hands on that unique version of the game that only you seem to possess.

[TheVUP]

First off, the definition I am using for bad end:
- If in an ending the two main characters separate and are both unhappy about it, that ending is a bad one.
- If the main character dies, the ending is a bad one.

A fair definition.
As of now I haven't played Rin route. So I'd say it's Shizune's.

As for my opinion:
- I'm on the fence between Emi's ending and Rin's second bad ending. Both leave both characters broken and offer little to no chance for reconciliation. Both elicited a strong but different response in me: Emi's had a cold block of ice form in my stomach while Rin's had me in tears. In fact I'm allowing two options per user simply because I can't decide^^°

I don't know Rin had two bad endings.
Emi's bad ending is quite similar to Hanako's, in that we (the player) believe that the option we choose is right or at least make sense.

- Lilly's bad end ends with Lilly leaving the country for good, so there's also little chance of them getting together again, but the way Lilly acted like a bitch before that made it hard for me to feel too bad about it.

If you think she acted like a bitch you should put it in the last order.

- Hanako's bad end is probably the angriest, but for the same reason I think it would be possible to fix it once Hanako has calmed down again, and Hisao apologizes. I don't think Hanako is the type to reject such an apology.

I agree. With some time it's possible for them to reconcile.
Remind me of some fanfiction about it, albeit having too out-of-characters.

[TheVUP]

I'd really love to get my hands on that unique version of the game that only you seem to possess.

You don't know that?
Well of course, it only happens on "Collector's Edition".

[Potato]

@Katie, that never happens in any route...

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at...

I believe he means she'd end up having to acknowledge her mistake whether or not Akira said anything. You know, when the actual 'leaving forever' thing inevitably came up...Of course, for the sake of a bad ending, she wouldn't...But realistically...

[Atario]

Intent is important to a certain degree, but whatever her intent, the result was that she hurt Hisao (and Hanako), because she was too indecisive/cowardly/weak/insert adjective of choice to be open about her problem.

True; but even so, without intent, it's a weakness or a mistake, which in my opinion is not cause for offense or anger. At most, it would be disappointment or sorrow.

Wait, no. Not loyalty. I'm positing that she's trying to test whether he wants her or not, not whether he's loyal to her.

Whatever. My point was that I don't think that is her intention, so I'm not going to argue the details of what she doesn't want to do^^°

I only mentioned it because testing loyalty would indeed be a bit of a "dick move".

"Deferential" is her stance towards her parents. "Afraid" is her stance towards Hisao. I think that should be clear in the line you quoted.

I meant I felt she was being deferential to both.

So what is it you're thinking she's afraid of in refraining from telling him she's simply decided to go?

His reaction of course. Hisao had every reason to be very angry with her.
Regardless of whether or not she had already decided to go at that point, she does have feelings for Hisao, and she is afraid he might take it badly and reject her.

Well… if she had already decided to go, I'd think being "rejected" would make things easier for her. It would remove any need for her to push him away, and leave him feeling like he did the dumping too.

Because she knows she's done something wrong, and now she has to admit it to herself.

But if that were the case, it would apply either way.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at...

I mean if she's annoyed only because she has to admit she's done wrong, then whether or not she's decided, she still has to admit wrongness. So then it's not evidence for either premise: decided or not decided. But anyway, that ignores her offhanded, unprompted reason she gives for the annoyance: wanting to have decided before telling him.

[Mirage_GSM]

Well… if she had already decided to go, I'd think being "rejected" would make things easier for her. It would remove any need for her to push him away, and leave him feeling like he did the dumping too.

Objectively that is true. Subjectively you can still dread the moment when he learns the truth and try to push that moment as far away as possible. You even have a word for that in English: "Procrastination"

I mean if she's annoyed only because she has to admit she's done wrong, then whether or not she's decided, she still has to admit wrongness. So then it's not evidence for either premise: decided or not decided.

No, it's not evidence - just an indicator, and I admit it is a weak one. I already told you what I do consider evidence a more compelling indicator, and you didn't agree with that either.
I don't want to place too much value on the question of whether or not she had decided at that point. I believe she had; you believe she hadn't, but even if she had not decided to go - as long as she had not definitely decided NOT to go, starting a relationship with Hisao and not telling him about the summons was a massive breach of trust.
You might have a different opinion, but in that case we simply have different moral positions and probably won't come to an agreement no matter how long this discussion goes on.

[Munchenhausen]

Considering that Hisao freaked out and started screaming and throwing chess pieces at Hanako whenever she beat him at chess early in Lilly's route, I'm not surprised that Lilly was too afraid to tell him the truth about her leaving.

I've gotta say, that's a good point.
Also when Hisao and Lilly went to the shop and found Rin! That scene when he just kept calling her 'stumpy' and got aggressive when Lilly asked him to stop.

[Atario]

I don't want to place too much value on the question of whether or not she had decided at that point. I believe she had; you believe she hadn't, but even if she had not decided to go - as long as she had not definitely decided NOT to go, starting a relationship with Hisao and not telling him about the summons was a massive breach of trust.
You might have a different opinion, but in that case we simply have different moral positions and probably won't come to an agreement no matter how long this discussion goes on.

Actually, I think we just got to the crux of the matter: you're faulting her for confessing to, and embarking on a relationship with, Hisao without having cut off anything in her life that might compete with that, which you consider dishonest.

Whereas what I'm saying is that it wasn't dishonest because: that is in fact how she felt and what she wanted. Furthermore, to suppress that for the sake of avoiding a future conflict would be the dishonest path to take.

Her subsequent internal struggle over family vs. romance doesn't change that; and, bound by the strictures of being the Proper Young Lady, she could of course not consider acting unilaterally in opposition to either side: she couldn't just tell her family "sorry, I'm in love, so no"; and she couldn't just tell Hisao "sorry, I want to be with my family, so bye". It just wasn't in her to do either. And there was no independent way for Hisao and her family to even communicate the situation between themselves. So she just waited and struggled with herself and hoped something would solve it for her. Fortunately for her, Akira took pity and stepped in to at least trigger something to happen. Unfortunately for her, the "solution" ended up being Hisao jumping to a conclusion and then failing to assert himself.

Her flaw was her deference leading to inaction; his flaw was his pessimism leading to inaction. It's not a black-and-white case of "she's a bitch and Hisao was her victim".

[Munchenhausen]

@Katie, that never happens in any route...

Oh yeah, it's part of the Saki/Rika update, as one of the Unlockable Answer DLCs.

"Check,"

Lilly's smile is victorious. It's obvious that she tried to hide it, but I guess blind people aren't exactly good at facial expressions. Hanako takes a few minutes to check the chessboard. Indeed, my Lillypad has her in check, but even I can see there's an easy escape. I guess Hanako's just weighing her options.

"I-I king my r-r-rook and s-swap them," Hanako picks up her rook and king and swap them over, smiling at her tactic.
What is she doing?

"FUCKING BULLSHIT!" I can't control my anger. What the fuck does she think she's playing at?! That's not a thing I swear down on me mum's life, yeah. I bet she doesn't even know how to play chess the poser bitch. "THAT'S BULLSHIT AND YOU FUCKING KNOW IT!"

Hanako practically shits herself and falls off her chair, skittering backwards into a corner like an abused puppy. "I...! I. dun.! eugh..!" She can't even fucking talk, what a stupid bitch! Lilly stands and places her beautiful, delicate hands on my shoulders,

"Hisao! What's gotten in to you!? Kinging is a legitimate move in chess!" My godess raising her voice at me brings tears to my eyes, and my heart begins thumping painfully against my chest. Lilly carefully makes her way over to Bacon tits and begins comforting her.

I need to aleviate these emotions in my soul, so naturally I pick up the chess board and start throwing pawns at Hanako. She sits there staring at the wall, making a slight yelp with each wooden piece that bounces off her head.

"Fucking bitch!" I dash a knight at her and leave the room, suddenly craving a bottle of whiskey.

[Mirage_GSM]

Actually, I think we just got to the crux of the matter: you're faulting her for confessing to, and embarking on a relationship with, Hisao without having cut off anything in her life that might compete with that, which you consider dishonest.

No, I'm not! I have never said such a thing.
The problem isn't that she didn't cut her ties to her family. Nobody can be expected to do that. The problem is that she didn't even talk to Hisao about it. She didn't give him a choice. She started a relationship with Hisao - which he put a huge emotional investment in - without informing him that she might be leaving the country forever in a few weeks. That's what I consider dishonest.

[Potato]

@Katie, that never happens in any route...

Oh yeah, it's part of the Saki/Rika update, as one of the Unlockable Answer DLCs.

"Check,"

Lilly's smile is victorious. It's obvious that she tried to hide it, but I guess blind people aren't exactly good at facial expressions. Hanako takes a few minutes to check the chessboard. Indeed, my Lillypad has her in check, but even I can see there's an easy escape. I guess Hanako's just weighing her options.

"I-I king my r-r-rook and s-swap them," Hanako picks up her rook and king and swap them over, smiling at her tactic.
What is she doing?

"FUCKING BULLSHIT!" I can't control my anger. What the fuck does she think she's playing at?! That's not a thing I swear down on me mum's life, yeah. I bet she doesn't even know how to play chess the poser bitch. "THAT'S BULLSHIT AND YOU FUCKING KNOW IT!"

Hanako practically shits herself and falls off her chair, skittering backwards into a corner like an abused puppy. "I...! I. dun.! eugh..!" She can't even fucking talk, what a stupid bitch! Lilly stands and places her beautiful, delicate hands on my shoulders,

"Hisao! What's gotten in to you!? Kinging is a legitimate move in chess!" My godess raising her voice at me brings tears to my eyes, and my heart begins thumping painfully against my chest. Lilly carefully makes her way over to Bacon tits and begins comforting her.

I need to aleviate these emotions in my soul, so naturally I pick up the chess board and start throwing pawns at Hanako. She sits there staring at the wall, making a slight yelp with each wooden piece that bounces off her head.

"Fucking bitch!" I dash a knight at her and leave the room, suddenly craving a bottle of whiskey.

...I'm somewhat ashamed to say I tipped over in my chair laughing hysterically at this.

[Munchenhausen]

...I'm somewhat ashamed to say I tipped over in my chair laughing hysterically at this.

*Sunglasses on*
*Union Flag waves in background*
*Hand on chest, solitary tear rolls down cheek*
My job here is done, citizen.

[TheVUP]

*Sunglasses on*
*Union Flag waves in background*
*Hand on chest, solitary tear rolls down cheek*
My job here is done, citizen.

Thank you, officer.

[Atario]

"Fucking bitch!" I dash a knight at her and leave the room, suddenly craving a bottle of whiskey.

"Kenji was right. He was right all along. And now… I must go to him…"

Actually, I think we just got to the crux of the matter: you're faulting her for confessing to, and embarking on a relationship with, Hisao without having cut off anything in her life that might compete with that, which you consider dishonest.

No, I'm not! I have never said such a thing.
The problem isn't that she didn't cut her ties to her family. Nobody can be expected to do that. The problem is that she didn't even talk to Hisao about it. She didn't give him a choice. She started a relationship with Hisao - which he put a huge emotional investment in - without informing him that she might be leaving the country forever in a few weeks. That's what I consider dishonest.

Well, that's what I was talking about when I said "cut off". Not cut her family off from herself entirely, just cut off the prospect of complying with their summons, which is what would compete with their relationship. Meaning make the decision to stay for him before even knowing if he loved her back.

But the way you phrased that is interesting: "She didn't give him a choice.", "without informing him". This brings up the prospect of picking a time to tell him this summons was on the table.

It seems to me that before her confession, they weren't close enough yet to warrant telling him personal family business; and afterward it would be too late (by the standard you're setting). So the only option left would be during. Which I can't quite imagine. "I love you, I love you, don't ever leave me, oh, and by the way, before you accept me, know that I'm thinking of going away forever in a few weeks, so you're playing the odds if you do." Weird. Weird at best. In all, I'm not sure there ever was a good time for Lilly to tell him, given the way their relationship played out.

So the alternative is to just refrain from confessing entirely, as I was postulating. And that would be even worse from an honesty point of view, not to mention a romance point of view.