Oh Lilly... what's wrong with me?

[Guest Poster]

Lilly does actually disclose things about herself at several points, like the talk she and Hisao have in the library where she mentions she's half-Scottish and she wants to become a teacher. There's also the talk she and Hisao have the morning after Hanako's party, where Lilly talks about her parents. And finally there's the date they go on where you learn a lot more about Lilly. So while Lilly's certainly a little reserved, she does talk about herself from time to time.

[Xanatos]

What Hisao does in Lilly's route hardly counts as deception, especially compared to what she does.

Go count the words in that quote. There are a lot more than one. Maybe if you avoid unnecessarily zooming in on "deception", you won't completely miss the point.

[Markus Ramikin]

I didn't miss it. But the deception thing was salient, important to DalekKahn's point that you supposedly fixed, which makes your substitution not work. You sacrificed making your point well for the sake of being what passes on the Internet as witty.

[Loonie]

Lilly does actually disclose things about herself at several points, like the talk she and Hisao have in the library where she mentions she's half-Scottish and she wants to become a teacher. There's also the talk she and Hisao have the morning after Hanako's party, where Lilly talks about her parents. And finally there's the date they go on where you learn a lot more about Lilly. So while Lilly's certainly a little reserved, she does talk about herself from time to time.

But that's just it - the reminiscing that she and Hisao constantly do about their lives, coupled with that groan-inducing phrase: "We're just a couple of old fools, aren't we?", always serves to redirect from the most important issue at hand, which isn't revealed until Akira comes into the mix.

It's revealing things about herself sorta like if you met a nice girl and fancied her, told her so, and in response she would, over the course of a few months, talk about how she likes making female friends a bit more, how she's genuinely surprised to enjoy your company because of that, how her parents always did view her as sort of a dissapointment for an unspecified reason and only when you tried to kiss her did she finally say: "I'm actually lesbian."

I mean...sure it's revealing things about yourself. But it's also not talking about the thing that's the most important to the relationship between yourself and her. Of course the blame doesn't just lie with the girl for not saying, straight up, that she's a lesbian after being told that a guy fancies her, it also lies with the guy being too thick to not just ask that question himself in the first place if something about his target of affection strikes him as odd. To go back to KS, as Hisao correctly thinks to himself during his talk with Akira: "How could I have not simply cornered Lilly on her strange outburst?" In some ways the failure to talk about this issue really is Hisao's fault as much as it is Lilly's.

[DalekKahn]

Lilly does actually disclose things about herself at several points, like the talk she and Hisao have in the library where she mentions she's half-Scottish and she wants to become a teacher. There's also the talk she and Hisao have the morning after Hanako's party, where Lilly talks about her parents. And finally there's the date they go on where you learn a lot more about Lilly. So while Lilly's certainly a little reserved, she does talk about herself from time to time.

But that's just it - the reminiscing that she and Hisao constantly do about their lives, coupled with that groan-inducing phrase: "We're just a couple of old fools, aren't we?", always serves to redirect from the most important issue at hand, which isn't revealed until Akira comes into the mix.

It's revealing things about herself sorta like if you met a nice girl and fancied her, told her so, and in response she would, over the course of a few months, talk about how she likes making female friends a bit more, how she's genuinely surprised to enjoy your company because of that, how her parents always did view her as sort of a dissapointment for an unspecified reason and only when you tried to kiss her did she finally say: "I'm actually lesbian."

I mean...sure it's revealing things about yourself. But it's also not talking about the thing that's the most important to the relationship between yourself and her. Of course the blame doesn't just lie with the girl for not saying, straight up, that she's a lesbian after being told that a guy fancies her, it also lies with the guy being too thick to not just ask that question himself in the first place if something about his target of affection strikes him as odd. To go back to KS, as Hisao correctly thinks to himself during his talk with Akira: "How could I have not simply cornered Lilly on her strange outburst?" In some ways the failure to talk about this issue really is Hisao's fault as much as it is Lilly's.

Yeah, I agree that the blame falls on both of their shoulders for just ignoring so many things. That's why I just don't feel their relationship really works in the story. It just seems so incomplete of a relationship.

[Xanatos]

I didn't miss it. But the deception thing was salient, important to DalekKahn's point that you supposedly fixed, which makes your substitution not work. You sacrificed making your point well for the sake of being what passes on the Internet as witty.

Oh, you didn't miss it? Great. So you're just willfully ignoring it for the sake of pedanticism. Well, that's totally not really irritating.

His point was that Lilly's "tenancies [sic] towards emotional distance, and refusal to confront others about issues" fucks up the relationship while Hisao is just as if not more guilty of the same. He avoids his own issues and fails to confront her about her issues. Just keeps a nice apathetic, dishonest distance from everything. Hell, it's why she goes through with the leave in the bad end. He spends most routes confronting people to an overbearing degree (which leads to Emi, Rin, and Hanako's bad end) and when he actually needs to assert himself a bit or even just have a little honesty with himself, he falls through on it.

Yeah, Lilly "deceived" him but that was the better of her options under the circumstances. And Hisao didn't exactly encourage openness by being...Well, completely unopen about even the most basic of things.

When it comes down to it, they both fucked up but ya still have to acknowledge both.

[Markus Ramikin]

Yeah, Lilly "deceived" him but that was the better of her options under the circumstances.

This is what I have trouble swallowing, and why a number of posts on this thread lately have been baffling me, people trying to justify it. Because to me, deceiving someone - either by directly lying, or knowing that your words and actions are predictably creating an untrue model of the world in the other person's mind, and continuing acting and speaking in that way - is not acceptable among people who are supposed to be close (lovers, family etc). I mean, we're not talking about little white lies, but big, important issues such as "I'm going to leave you soon". Because even if it makes things nicer for a while, once the truth is out it's going to sour the other person's memories of the period during which they were lied to. It means all the hopes and plans you had based on that fake knowledge were an illusion.

This is very different from just being reserved and passive like Hisao was. So I have a hard time seeing it as the optimal choice under almost any circumstances.

To me, it's only a better option if we're assuming a purely selfish POV for Lilly: I'll take what I can from this relationship while I can, enjoy the sex and intimacy, then get out and let the whole thing fall to pieces behind me when I'm safe and gone. But if she cares about someone other than herself - and she does - there's always the option of not confessing to him in the first place. Not doing things like making him promise to never leave her etc. And if you do that, well, if you say A, you have to say B. If you're going to start a relationship, the necessity to be honest about important things follows.

When it comes down to it, they both fucked up but ya still have to acknowledge both.

Agreed with that, at least. Hisao can certainly be infuriating.

[Oddball]

This is what I have trouble swallowing, and why a number of posts on this thread lately have been baffling me, people trying to justify it. Because to me, deceiving someone - either by directly lying, or knowing that your words and actions are predictably creating an untrue model of the world in the other person's mind, and continuing acting and speaking in that way - is not acceptable among people who are supposed to be close (lovers, family etc). I mean, we're not talking about little white lies, but big, important issues such as "I'm going to leave you soon".

I find it hard to see why people would get mad at Lilly for that stuff and not be upset with Hanako and Emi for also holding back some major information.

[Velitation]

This is what I have trouble swallowing, and why a number of posts on this thread lately have been baffling me, people trying to justify it. Because to me, deceiving someone - either by directly lying, or knowing that your words and actions are predictably creating an untrue model of the world in the other person's mind, and continuing acting and speaking in that way - is not acceptable among people who are supposed to be close (lovers, family etc). I mean, we're not talking about little white lies, but big, important issues such as "I'm going to leave you soon".

I find it hard to see why people would get mad at Lilly for that stuff and not be upset with Hanako and Emi for also holding back some major information.

For me, I think it is a matter of principle. Do you do the hard task that will most likely cause emotional turmoil or the easy one that lessens or prevents that damage (supposedly, even though it is a false hope, but a hope nonetheless)? People make mistakes with that question some of the time, especially when they may have little to no experience of being open about their "things". The approach is hard to grasp, with rash thinking being an overwhelming factor. That thinking turns into actions, but it doesn't have to be that way. That is something that only comes with experience, however.

With considering Lilly's situation, she thought she would take the easy way out, and that it would be beneficial for all parties involved, since it was inevitable. Her naivety stands out, and the choice backfires. Lilly's facade/shell/whatever you want to call it is a coping mechanism.

Heh, I don't want to be bogged down by this though. The meaning, themes and plot are only profound if you let them be. (Hides in corner.)

[MegaMoto]

This is what I have trouble swallowing, and why a number of posts on this thread lately have been baffling me, people trying to justify it. Because to me, deceiving someone - either by directly lying, or knowing that your words and actions are predictably creating an untrue model of the world in the other person's mind, and continuing acting and speaking in that way - is not acceptable among people who are supposed to be close (lovers, family etc). I mean, we're not talking about little white lies, but big, important issues such as "I'm going to leave you soon".

I find it hard to see why people would get mad at Lilly for that stuff and not be upset with Hanako and Emi for also holding back some major information.

Oh sure Emi and Hanako do hold information back but I think it's a little different. Emi has a GOOD reason to not want to get close to anyone and keep things to herself for one. The thing that makes Lilly different is that she knew this was going to happen, knew it was going to hurt her friends and still went through with it anyway. I'll agree Hisao is thinker then a brick wall and he more then likely should have asked Lilly about stuff after her outburst however that doesn't mean Lilly was anymore right to hold back the information.

[Mirage_GSM]

I find it hard to see why people would get mad at Lilly for that stuff and not be upset with Hanako and Emi for also holding back some major information.

Both Hanako and Emi have deep-rooted emotional problems.
Hanako has difficulties even talking to people about the book she's currently reading, let alone her traumatizing experiences. Still I can't think of a time where she outright deceives Hisao.
Same goes for Emi. She may be unwilling to take the relationship to the level Hisao would like it to go, but she is never dishonest. Her reluctance to share her problems with him does also cause him emotional pain, but that is simply a mismatch of expectations two teenage lovers have of a relationship, not a planned deception on Emi's part.

[Markus Ramikin]

Still I can't think of a time where she outright deceives Hisao.

That's also what I thought. What did you have in mind specifically, Oddball?

[Guest Poster]

To me, it's only a better option if we're assuming a purely selfish POV for Lilly: I'll take what I can from this relationship while I can, enjoy the sex and intimacy, then get out and let the whole thing fall to pieces behind me when I'm safe and gone.

To be fair, Hisao enjoys the sex and intimacy as well. (well aside that one time where Lilly almost screwed him to death) And she wouldn't be safe and gone afterwards. She loved him as well and would feel like total crap afterwards. It was more like; let's both have a good time and then both feel horrible about it. And yeah, that wasn't fair, but let's face it...a confession would have occurred at some point, probably during that weekend.

But if she cares about someone other than herself - and she does - there's always the option of not confessing to him in the first place. Not doing things like making him promise to never leave her etc. And if you do that, well, if you say A, you have to say B. If you're going to start a relationship, the necessity to be honest about important things follows.

You use the word option, but an option suggests the presence of a concious choice. Lilly wasn't planning to confess to him or have him make that promise. It kind of slipped out after a rather stressful and frightening afternoon. I guess you can blame Lilly for not owing up to that mistake until the very end, but Lilly hardly confessed to Hisao with the intent to hurt him.

[Markus Ramikin]

Yes, I agree with all of that. These things I said are in response to the idea that deceiving Hisao was somehow the best option, which I disagree with.

[Xanatos]

Emi has a GOOD reason to not want to get close to anyone and keep things to herself for one.

Uh...A completely irrational fear that doesn't actually make any real sense isn't a good reason.

Understandable to a point (so is Lilly) but not good.