Oh Lilly... what's wrong with me?

[Merloficus]

Before I start let me just say the following: there will be some spoilers (duh) and some people might not like what I say. That said, I really loved the story that was written for Lilly. Found it well written and enjoyed it. But unlike the others I’ve read, it never ever appealed to me. Not once.
Oh, and fair warning: this is going to be A LOT of text

So where to start?

I’ve played 3 arcs now, every time I started I entered that one classroom by accident and stumbled on the gracious figure we all know as Lilly. And every time I just wanted to sit there for the rest of the day. The image was so captivating, perfect to me

However, when I eventually go for my fourth read (which will be either for Hanako or Rin) I doubt the same feelings will return.
Every arc I’ve read so far has always had something that carried it, some major event or something dramatic of sorts. Emi had the accident that caused the death of her father *sniff* and Shizune had ‘Misha’, the friend she took for granted. I for the love of god cannot find it in Lilly’s arc. (note: it was never clear until the very end of her route, whereas with the others it was)
I actually thought it might be Hisao having heart attacks, because the poor guy has had more than I dare to remember in her arc. No, it must be something else. Lilly going back Iverness in Scotland then?

Every arc I’ve read so far has had some impact on me, not even joking. After finishing Emi’s arc, I started running myself. Run 5+km now ever 2nd, and also do other activities beside that to just keep my body in good shape. Shizune’s made me realize that I too took some of my friends for granted, called one of my friends and we now regularly hang out again. Even going to a party with them next week.‘How KS improved my life, by Merlo’ lol!
But with Lilly’s… Nothing, just nothing… I even hated the music in her arc because it got all dramatic every time the topic of her leaving was about to come on. For instance I loved the deep emotional tracks in Emi’s arc like ‘moment of decision’, but the problems in Lilly’s seemed so pathetic and minuscule to me that the music… I did not like it, save for ‘breathlessly, that one fit perfectly. I even hated the fact that Lilly kept her summons hidden from Hisao for so long. Leaving hisao with a kind of feeling of, first she tells me she loves me and sleeps with me, and then we might never be together after we graduate!?!
Out of all the crap the girls could pull off, I find this to be the very worst! (pardon my language)
And for those who think I have no empathy for Hisao and Lilly: I actually fell in love with a girl that was a gifted violin player. Won’t go into details but, she had the opportunity to move on. Make a name for herself… So I told her she had to chase it! She left the country I lived in, she left my life… And I hated myself so much for letting her go, you can not even imagine. Point is, these things happen. And sure it’s hard at first, but you learn to put things in perspective. Hisao only knows Lilly for what? 3 months? Yea, real tearjerker-__- Having been through roughly the same ordeal, I can’t dwell on it too hard. Such is Life Hisao.

Another thing that bugged me a bit was Lilly herself. More precise, the way she acts. Let me clarify, I know she’s been raised to be a proper ‘lady’, having gone to a strict all-girls school. And her family is probably part of the upper class, so it all fits. And when Hisao first met her, her courtesy actually put me at ease, it was nice. But as Hisao and Lilly grew closer and closer, it started getting a bit… weird? It’s funny to see Lilly talk to a complete stranger and talk to her lover in almost the exact same way xD. Though I may be exaggerating here.

Don’t hate me for this, because I really did like the writing. But I always had the comical idea of two scientist in ‘love’ both holding a big book saying to each other: ‘(NR1)when we have her say that we can do this, and after it we should do that! (NR2)But on page 418 it says we should first do this! (NR1)Oh right, right!’
The love scenes… I’m not into the game because of them, but I always enjoyed them at least. Not so much with Lilly. Which is funny, because when I had my first ever glance at all the characters and saw Lilly I thought that she’d be the one. She’d be the one I’d fall for. I like girls that are tall, thin, and have blonde fair hair(being 23 I can hopefully say that without becoming a perv ).
Doctor, I think we have a match! But it didn’t work for me.
The first one came so sudden even. I might be wrong her guys, but if I remember it correctly: Hanako, Lilly and Hisao went to that cottage-place-thingy after Lilly returned from Scotland. Hisao had a heart-attack from not taking his pills. => Lilly and Hanako drag him back and Hisao wakes up and finds Lilly in a field(love that picture btw )=> They both confess their love for each other. Up until then there was no clear evidence the two were even going to get anywhere soon. And that exact same evening they have sex for the first time… With Hanako just behind the door… I was honestly thinking to myself with every new text that popped up that Hanako would just stumble onto them by accident. ‘Lilly are you still out… LILLY!…’ And why not give it another go the very next day, in the bathtub! No offense, but it was really as if someone’s sexual fantasies sprung alive here
That or Lilly has some sexual craving going on that will no doubt be the death of poor Hisao one day:D Oh wait… Blindfolded sex anyone?
No thanks, those weren’t my cup of tea;)
With both Emi and Shizune it felt sooooo much more natural, or at least it appeared like that to me. Shizune was so wonderful, completely unexpected and I loved it. You could sense it coming, but I NEVER thought it would’ve been like that. Loved it! Emi is playful by nature, hers was just as amusing and fun to go through. And Rin just barging in like that, pure gold!

I’ve read the forums a fair bit, and always saw the same thing recurring. Hanako and Lilly are by far the favorite characters for the majority of the people here.
I went through it at my own pace, took the decisions I thought were right. So I ended up where I did. And when I finally told myself ‘ok, this time I’ll go for Lilly’, I was naturally hyped up a bit. Everyone seems to think her arc/she is the best or 2nd best in the entire game! And hell I even liked the look of her before I ever met her in Yamaku!

But alas, I’m sorry Lilly. I don’t like you. And I fear I never will. The best we’ll ever be is friends, and I’m sure that’s enough anyway. The most memorable/enjoyable scenes for me where the ones involving either Hanako and/or Akira(love her brand of beer ). The silly jokes in her route, mainly thanks to Akira(‘you perv, Hiao!’ or ‘Managed not to kill Shizune?’).Lilly and Hisao going for groceries, especially the first time, it was so cute! The birthday party for Hanako was so bloody nice! Just seeing both Hanako and Lilly in their gowns n jamies for the first time was wonderful in itself . But I never got carried away past that, it never got me dragged in or submerged in the story. This is seriously no fault of the writer, else Lilly wouldn’t be among the forumers who she is today.
One thing I did really like, was how every arc up until now has been completely different, I mean there’s no comparing the stories at all! They’re just all so unique and wonderful in their own ways.
And I guess I’m just one of those VERY few people out there that this particular arc doesn’t appeal to.

After all that though, I might have been a bit negative up here, I genuinely enjoyed her ending. I didn’t think it would get to me, last of all move me. But it did! I The moment that music box could be heard in hospital… like you all say: them ‘feels’! *I cried a little*

And to Suriko: Damn you!:D I was in tears when the end credits rolled in and then those wonderful scenes followed! That so caught me off guard. Thank you very much for a very enjoyable read!

And there you have it. I’m sorry for the immense wall of text you have gone through, thanks for having the time. Someone once asked me for my reaction/view on Lilly’s arc when I ever finished it, so I wanted to be thorough. Even so I’m sure I’ve forgotten tons of stuff I wanted to say

So to finish up:

I hope I haven’t offended anyone by writing this. As I said, I did like her arc. And I do like Lilly. But the relation between her and Hisao never worked for me I guess? And the entire thing of Lilly having to leave Hisao behind never made big of an impact on me, just until the very end. I almost laughed it way compared to… oh never mind
Having said that, I’ll probably go through it again. Maybe I was too harsh, maybe it was me…
So, take care Lilly, best of luck in your endeavors. And if you want, we’ll meet up some time.
But for now, farewell.

PS. Lilly’s parents are dicks for how they treated her

[pandaphil]

Great post Merloficus. Reasonable and polite. Really interested in seeing other peoples replies.

I suppose the writer of her arc assumed that people who were attracted to Lilly would be more inclined to prefer a gentle, romantic story, rather than one filled with drama. So they wrote it accordingly. And personally I enjoyed the sex scenes. It added a nice dimension to her character, that shes not always the prim, proper young flower she pretends to be. From the sound of things, Hisao is the first person she's been able to have that sort of relationship with, so I can understand her letting go with him. Teenagers are like that.

As a character, I think she's okay. I'm a Hanako fan personally, so I'm kinda obligated to like her, just for being there to help my favorite girl.

Its a shame they didn't explore her feelings about her family more in game. I've never been able to shake the feeling that she has a lot of abandonment issues that shes hiding.

[BananaPudding]

/agree with the great post sentiment above

I kind of felt a bit similar when I did Shizune's route (I'm now going back through it and trying VERY hard to get into a good shizune mindset)

So I have re-written the beginning of this paragraph like 5 times because I don't know where to start. So I think I'm just going to say why I "did" like Lilly's route with respect to some of the things you mentioned (that being said, having differing opinions is great and I'm not saying "you're wrong" or anything like that)

So lilly gives off that certain air of "prim and proper lady" nearly at all times. I certainly had all of the pre-conceived notions that came along with that, she was probably at least a little prudish I thought, for example. So I was fairly surprised to see certain aspects of her character emerge that I didn't expect. How ready and willing she was to experiment with alcohol for example, then, of course, the sex. Rather than seeing these as random and not in align with her character, I realized that maybe she didn't fit so neatly into my cookie cutter prim and proper stereotype. Making me adore her even more, of course

I think Lilly's going away to Scotland is made a little more impact-full by how relatively drama free the first half of her arc is. Everything is going great, even hanako is making new friends so it seems like there is nothing that could go wrong, then WHAM huge shift in the atmosphere when you finally found out about her going to Scotland (also I can't really blame Lilly for keeping it from Hisao, I couldn't imagine how hard it would be to tell someone that)

The ending hit me pretty big time, and I think this is why. Had I found myself in a similar situation, I would have acted in pretty much the same way at first, telling her to go and trying to ignore my feelings or convince myself that I am ok with her going. So when Hisao finally decided that hey, maybe he should at least give her the honest truth about how he feels, weather or not it changes her mind. I kind of had a similar epiphany. Now if I ever find myself in some kind of situation where I normally would have just ignored my feelings and try to do what's best for the girl, I fully intend on speaking up and saying "No, I'm not okay with this, I want you to stay, you don't have to, but I want you to" (which is like a complete 180 shift from how I used to be :b)

BTW I don't proofread my tl;dr posts so sorry if there are some things in there that don't make sense

[Xanatos]

1) That said, I really loved the story that was written for Lilly. Found it well written and enjoyed it. But unlike the others I’ve read, it never ever appealed to me. Not once.

2) Every arc I’ve read so far has always had something that carried it, some major event or something dramatic of sorts. Emi had the accident that caused the death of her father *sniff* and Shizune had ‘Misha’, the friend she took for granted. I for the love of god cannot find it in Lilly’s arc.

3) Out of all the crap the girls could pull off, I find this to be the very worst! (pardon my language)

4) Another thing that bugged me a bit was Lilly herself. More precise, the way she acts. Let me clarify, I know she’s been raised to be a proper ‘lady’, having gone to a strict all-girls school. And her family is probably part of the upper class, so it all fits. And when Hisao first met her, her courtesy actually put me at ease, it was nice. But as Hisao and Lilly grew closer and closer, it started getting a bit… weird? It’s funny to see Lilly talk to a complete stranger and talk to her lover in almost the exact same way xD. Though I may be exaggerating here.

5) With both Emi and Shizune it felt sooooo much more natural

6) PS. Lilly’s parents are dicks for how they treated her

1) ...If you loved and enjoyed it, it appealed to you. Unless you're applying some stricter definition that I'm not thinking of...

2) The "major event" is her move but the bigger part of the route is the conflict, which has next to nothing to do with her. That event just serves as a reinforcement of and (depending on player choice) turning point for the conflict. The conflict being Hisao. All throughout her route, he's even more apathetic than usual and damned meek to boot. He just clings to her to guide him through his new life rather than develop any notable ambition or strength for himself. Not unlike Hanako, but with far less excuses than Hanako.

3) Agreed...And yet, I understand her thought process there. On one hand, her springing this revelation at him late in the game serves as a test. If he's worth staying for, he'll fight to keep her there. And even if he doesn't, going ahead with the confession and everything is far better than sitting with her tea ten years down the line and agonizing over "What if?".

4) Well, she likely didn't expect to be around too long given the summons so that could be seen as simple defensive distance. I've had to utilize that before myself. And going back to the whole conflict, Hisao's general mindset and clingy apathy kind of makes maintaining the whole proper motherly persona more appropriate than that of a lover. Plus he shows a lot more discomfort over his arrhythmia in her route so it could also be her treading lightly for fear of upset. Again, similar to Hanako, but with much less excuse...

5) I dunno. Shizune ties him up and all. Not quite natural. And really, what's more natural than "I'm horny, my boy toy's nude in the tub, let's do this!" She might act prim and proper but that doesn't magically erase hormones. Plus Shizune and Emi kinda seemed to plan theirs...The first with Lilly didn't seem that way to me. The second and everything thereafter, maybe...Girl's got an addictive personality.

6) Fuck those people. Right in the ass, with a pineapple grown by Hitler.

[Mirage_GSM]

I did not like it, save for ‘breathlessly, that one fit perfectly. I even hated the fact that Lilly kept her summons hidden from Hisao for so long. Leaving hisao with a kind of feeling of, first she tells me she loves me and sleeps with me, and then we might never be together after we graduate!?!
Out of all the crap the girls could pull off, I find this to be the very worst! (pardon my language)

Welcome to the club. You'll find few enough members here on the forums.
It's not only that she hid the truth from Hisao for so long, but she actually knew about the summons before she even started the relationship.
And that's when the whole theme in her arc was "honesty": If Hisao doesn't tell the whole truth or neglects to mention everything even once, he's on the road to the bad end. Lilly gets awas with a lie like that and Hisao still almost kills himself for her.

The first one came so sudden even. I might be wrong her guys, but if I remember it correctly: Hanako, Lilly and Hisao went to that cottage-place-thingy after Lilly returned from Scotland. Hisao had a heart-attack from not taking his pills. => Lilly and Hanako drag him back and Hisao wakes up and finds Lilly in a field(love that picture btw )=> They both confess their love for each other. Up until then there was no clear evidence the two were even going to get anywhere soon. And that exact same evening they have sex for the first time…

For me it's not even the short time since the confession. Hisao had a freaking heart attack from taking a short walk just a few hours earlier and still hasn't taken his pills since then. Not very clever to have sex in that situation.

On one hand, her springing this revelation at him late in the game serves as a test. If he's worth staying for, he'll fight to keep her there.

Like "Is he selfish enough to try to keep me here, or does he love me enough to understand that I want to be with my family?"
Because Hisao passed that test with flying colours.

With both Emi and Shizune it felt sooooo much more natural,

Shizune? Can't say I agree here, but that's for a nother discussion.

[Xanatos]

Like "Is he selfish enough to try to keep me here, or does he love me enough to understand that I want to be with my family?"
Because Hisao passed that test with flying colours.

Well, on one end is the selfish response, trying to keep her there despite her wanting to be with family.

On the other is an understanding response, realizing she wants to be with her family and letting her go after attempts to keep her fall through.

In the bad end is what I'm going to call "the pussy response", not fighting for her whatsoever. Not even an attempt, barely a whimper in protest. In the good, it's the same but he grows a spine just in time.

The thing that stops the good end being overly selfish is that it never seemed to me that she wanted to be with her family all that much. Sure, she obeys the summons but she was raised to do so. She never seems to actively desire the move (and who would? For all intents and purposes, they're practically strangers). It's more of a "Yeah, sure, why not?". She doesn't particularly want to move but she's not going to stay for some apathetic waste with no ambition either.

After all, with her rich affluent family, she's offered guaranteed security. If the guy couldn't even try to keep her there or so much as voice his dissent, what's he offering? A nice doormat to wipe her shoes on.

[Mirage_GSM]

In the bad end is what I'm going to call "the pussy response", not fighting for her whatsoever. Not even an attempt, barely a whimper in protest.

Well, considering how the conversation goes that's not really surprising, isn't it?
When Hisao confronts her, her first reaction is not remorse for not telling him, but being angry with Akira for interfering.
Later on she straight out admits that her decision to go has been made "for a long time."
She never asks Hisao for his opinion or even his feelings - she simply presents him with facts. Not really much room for letting him convince her of anything.

[Merloficus]

Great post Merloficus. Reasonable and polite. Really interested in seeing other peoples replies.

I suppose the writer of her arc assumed that people who were attracted to Lilly would be more inclined to prefer a gentle, romantic story, rather than one filled with drama. So they wrote it accordingly. And personally I enjoyed the sex scenes. It added a nice dimension to her character, that shes not always the prim, proper young flower she pretends to be. From the sound of things, Hisao is the first person she's been able to have that sort of relationship with, so I can understand her letting go with him. Teenagers are like that.

As a character, I think she's okay. I'm a Hanako fan personally, so I'm kinda obligated to like her, just for being there to help my favorite girl.

Its a shame they didn't explore her feelings about her family more in game. I've never been able to shake the feeling that she has a lot of abandonment issues that shes hiding.

Thanks Panda

I guess so, her way of having a relationship just seemed to be more like a contract to me. I didn't get that feeling of two people wanting to share their lives together. But looking at it that way, it does make sense. Her upbringing, the way she needs to be for her family: the true lady. In that mindset her sex scenes make a lot more sense too. Like you said, in that one moment her barricades fall and she can actualy be herself.

And you hit the nail right on the head Panda, i feel like Lilly holds so much more. She's just not saying it. She may be a quiet person, but the number of silences in her arc during conversations... It's as if something's always on her mind. Something she doesn't want Hisao, or anyone for that matter, to know.
The most private info we ever received from her, iirc, was her crush on her taecher i believe. But i'm sure there's more she's not saying.

Hanako will probably be the next arc i'll go for, i'm 95% sure of it. Maybe that will change my opinion on Lilly a bit. Up until the final chapter in Lilly's arc, i was always drawn towards Hanako more than Lilly. So i have no doubt i will like her. Unless in some weird way, the exact same thing happens and i suddenly start liking Lilly more

/agree with the great post sentiment above

I kind of felt a bit similar when I did Shizune's route (I'm now going back through it and trying VERY hard to get into a good shizune mindset)

So I have re-written the beginning of this paragraph like 5 times because I don't know where to start. So I think I'm just going to say why I "did" like Lilly's route with respect to some of the things you mentioned (that being said, having differing opinions is great and I'm not saying "you're wrong" or anything like that)

So lilly gives off that certain air of "prim and proper lady" nearly at all times. I certainly had all of the pre-conceived notions that came along with that, she was probably at least a little prudish I thought, for example. So I was fairly surprised to see certain aspects of her character emerge that I didn't expect. How ready and willing she was to experiment with alcohol for example, then, of course, the sex. Rather than seeing these as random and not in align with her character, I realized that maybe she didn't fit so neatly into my cookie cutter prim and proper stereotype. Making me adore her even more, of course

I think Lilly's going away to Scotland is made a little more impact-full by how relatively drama free the first half of her arc is. Everything is going great, even hanako is making new friends so it seems like there is nothing that could go wrong, then WHAM huge shift in the atmosphere when you finally found out about her going to Scotland (also I can't really blame Lilly for keeping it from Hisao, I couldn't imagine how hard it would be to tell someone that)

The ending hit me pretty big time, and I think this is why. Had I found myself in a similar situation, I would have acted in pretty much the same way at first, telling her to go and trying to ignore my feelings or convince myself that I am ok with her going. So when Hisao finally decided that hey, maybe he should at least give her the honest truth about how he feels, weather or not it changes her mind. I kind of had a similar epiphany. Now if I ever find myself in some kind of situation where I normally would have just ignored my feelings and try to do what's best for the girl, I fully intend on speaking up and saying "No, I'm not okay with this, I want you to stay, you don't have to, but I want you to" (which is like a complete 180 shift from how I used to be :b)

BTW I don't proofread my tl;dr posts so sorry if there are some things in there that don't make sense

Yea, i can see how her 'person' actualy shadowed her true self a bit. Her true self thankfuly still being quite girlishy and fun! Bit like i said to Panda. The oppsosites are just a bit too extreme for my liking.

Well, i like the sudden rush of drama at the end. The only drama besides that actualy comes from Hanako(accident). But that exact thing bugs me. I talked to my girlfriend about this 3 months before she eventualy left, being the moment she recieved the news. Took nearly 1 month to actaly make a decision. You see, we talked about it. Weighed the pros and cons and such. I asked my best friend for advice. Here, Hisao needs to get the news from her sister. I can understand your point of view, but to me... i will never like that I prefer a relationship in which everything can be talked about, i want her to trust me and love me at the same time. Here i found the trust lacking, else i think she would've told him.
Thank god i got her happy ending

1) ...If you loved and enjoyed it, it appealed to you. Unless you're applying some stricter definition that I'm not thinking of...

2) The "major event" is her move but the bigger part of the route is the conflict, which has next to nothing to do with her. That event just serves as a reinforcement of and (depending on player choice) turning point for the conflict. The conflict being Hisao. All throughout her route, he's even more apathetic than usual and damned meek to boot. He just clings to her to guide him through his new life rather than develop any notable ambition or strength for himself. Not unlike Hanako, but with far less excuses than Hanako.

3) Agreed...And yet, I understand her thought process there. On one hand, her springing this revelation at him late in the game serves as a test. If he's worth staying for, he'll fight to keep her there. And even if he doesn't, going ahead with the confession and everything is far better than sitting with her tea ten years down the line and agonizing over "What if?".

4) Well, she likely didn't expect to be around too long given the summons so that could be seen as simple defensive distance. I've had to utilize that before myself. And going back to the whole conflict, Hisao's general mindset and clingy apathy kind of makes maintaining the whole proper motherly persona more appropriate than that of a lover. Plus he shows a lot more discomfort over his arrhythmia in her route so it could also be her treading lightly for fear of upset. Again, similar to Hanako, but with much less excuse...

5) I dunno. Shizune ties him up and all. Not quite natural. And really, what's more natural than "I'm horny, my boy toy's nude in the tub, let's do this!" She might act prim and proper but that doesn't magically erase hormones. Plus Shizune and Emi kinda seemed to plan theirs...The first with Lilly didn't seem that way to me. The second and everything thereafter, maybe...Girl's got an addictive personality.

6) Fuck those people. Right in the ass, with a pineapple grown by Hitler.

Interesting point of view Xan.
Just, i didn't see it like that during my read. Though reminiscing on it, i do see where you're coming from.
Hisao is a bit on the slow side in her story. Indeed, nothing happens. But he always says that he doesn't want people worrying over him. He hates it, so he does his best not to draw out an attack. (to little avail ) Also, Hisao's lack of action is imo partily of not mainly due to Lilly herslef. She cares for him like a mother, not a lover.
@3) maybe Xan... But i'd be unsure that that would be the kind of person i'd like to be with. First build the guy up from scrap and then destroy and see what he does. Sounds like an evil experiment. If you know 'Great expectations' by Charles Dickens, that's a bit how i see it. Not likeing it
It fits the typical hollywood movie better imo.
@5) as i've said above, the sex scenes she has may not be that out of place as i first thought they were. Placing them in this new perspective i can kinda like her in them. Still prefer the others though. Shizune's might seem weird for an outsider, but being the huge controlfreak she is it suited her perfectly imo. Just as with Emi. I don't think they planned it though, seemed kinda on the go to me for the most part.

I did not like it, save for ‘breathlessly, that one fit perfectly. I even hated the fact that Lilly kept her summons hidden from Hisao for so long. Leaving hisao with a kind of feeling of, first she tells me she loves me and sleeps with me, and then we might never be together after we graduate!?!
Out of all the crap the girls could pull off, I find this to be the very worst! (pardon my language)

Welcome to the club. You'll find few enough members here on the forums.
It's not only that she hid the truth from Hisao for so long, but she actually knew about the summons before she even started the relationship.
And that's when the whole theme in her arc was "honesty": If Hisao doesn't tell the whole truth or neglects to mention everything even once, he's on the road to the bad end. Lilly gets awas with a lie like that and Hisao still almost kills himself for her.

The first one came so sudden even. I might be wrong her guys, but if I remember it correctly: Hanako, Lilly and Hisao went to that cottage-place-thingy after Lilly returned from Scotland. Hisao had a heart-attack from not taking his pills. => Lilly and Hanako drag him back and Hisao wakes up and finds Lilly in a field(love that picture btw )=> They both confess their love for each other. Up until then there was no clear evidence the two were even going to get anywhere soon. And that exact same evening they have sex for the first time…

For me it's not even the short time since the confession. Hisao had a freaking heart attack from taking a short walk just a few hours earlier and still hasn't taken his pills since then. Not very clever to have sex in that situation.

On one hand, her springing this revelation at him late in the game serves as a test. If he's worth staying for, he'll fight to keep her there.

Like "Is he selfish enough to try to keep me here, or does he love me enough to understand that I want to be with my family?"
Because Hisao passed that test with flying colours.

With both Emi and Shizune it felt sooooo much more natural,

Shizune? Can't say I agree here, but that's for a nother discussion.

What can i say... i actually agree with everything you said
And i don't mind the few members, i usually find them to be the most fun to be in anyway
Honestly don't know what to add, i have the same thoughts. you just wrote them down better. I too had a hard time dealing with the honesty in their relationship, or lack of it. But that might be due to my personal life getting mixed in with her story...

And what can i say, Shizune's still my favorite storyline and character atm. So i *might* be a bit lenient towards her

[Oddball]

Also, Hisao's lack of action is imo partily of not mainly due to Lilly herslef. She cares for him like a mother, not a lover.

Not really. It's just Lilly's nature to be motherly. It seems rather apparent whenever she's dealing with anyone. That doesn't mean she views everyone like they're her child. She just tends to worry too much about people and wants to help them.

Hisao is a bit on the slow side in her story. Indeed, nothing happens.

Hisao is not a leader. He's a follower. In the course of the game he's still trying to get his life back together and needs to find where he fits in again. Although there's hints that he has just always gone with the flow even before his accident. When faced with a strong leader such as Lilly or Shizune, he doesn't question them. He simply goes along with them and assumes everything they do is what's going to workout for the best. (Frankly, I think giving somebody else control is one of the huge flaws in the Shizune route.)

[pandaphil]

Lilly being summoned before she met Hisao does kinda throw a monkewrench into things. the best explaination of her behavior is that she originally wanted to set up Hisao as Hanako's friend for after she left. She ended up falling for him instead, and hoped he'd be her excuse for not accepting her parents request. But when he didn't throw a fit, she felt he didn't really care that much after all, and decided to go ahead and leave.

I can't really blame her for how she acts. She came from a 'proper' family, attended religious school for most of her life, then from the age of twelve on, she had to be the responsible one. Cooking and cleaning and taking care of things while Akira was out working and partying. Its natural that she would suppress her more passionate side and become the motherly sort.

[Merloficus]

Also, Hisao's lack of action is imo partily of not mainly due to Lilly herslef. She cares for him like a mother, not a lover.

Not really. It's just Lilly's nature to be motherly. It seems rather apparent whenever she's dealing with anyone. That doesn't mean she views everyone like they're her child. She just tends to worry too much about people and wants to help them.

Hisao is a bit on the slow side in her story. Indeed, nothing happens.

Hisao is not a leader. He's a follower. In the course of the game he's still trying to get his life back together and needs to find where he fits in again. Although there's hints that he has just always gone with the flow even before his accident. When faced with a strong leader such as Lilly or Shizune, he doesn't question them. He simply goes along with them and assumes everything they do is what's going to workout for the best. (Frankly, I think giving somebody else control is one of the huge flaws in the Shizune route.)

Well then you at least partialy agree with me. I'm not saying she sees him like a poor thing that needs to be taken care off, like a mother would do. She even says so, i think. But even with the love between them, she can't shrug off her motherly instinct. Every time he says 'ouch', makes a weird noise, she's immediatly switching to 'mamma Lilly'. I wouldn't go as far as to say she's holding him back, more like protecting him. But it undoubtedly will have an effect on the guy.

Take Hisao in Shizune's arc for instance, he's the one that eventualy gets through to Misha. And he did so without Shizune. And i'm not talking about the 'comfort' scene here
I agree with you though, Hisao needs to be guided in the right direction a bit. But to say he's a pure follower, i don't think so. Comparing him to the two girls with the strongest wills will naturaly put him behind.
This realy should be in a topic about Shizune...
Hisao is the one that finaly opens Shizune's eyes. A yes-man would never've been able to do so imo. *hmmm, maybe i should open a new topic^^*

[Xanatos]

i want her to trust me and love me at the same time. Here i found the trust lacking, else i think she would've told him.

She cares for him like a mother, not a lover.

I don't think they planned it though, seemed kinda on the go to me for the most part.

Well, he doesn't seem to trust her with his problems so much either. Sounds like she's just returning the favor. And again, he doesn't exactly protest the motherly treatment. Pretty much encourages it by being passive and shitty about everything.

Shizune just happened to have invited him to her house and just happened to have something to tie him up on the go.

Emi just happened to drag him into the shed that she was deliberately told was a good place to secretly fuck a guy and just happened to tell Hisao that's the whole reason she brought him there.

Yeah. Totally unplanned incidents. Shizune's might've been a last-minute plan but there's still definitely some premeditation there. Emi just outright plotted her way to anal. XD

[Oddball]

Speaking of Lilly, she does seem a bit more open in Hanako's route than her own.

She invites you to her room for tea in Hanako's, but you don't get to see her room until Hanako's birthday party in her own route. Likewise she doesn't mention having to go back to Scotland until after Hanako's birthday in her own route,

I'm just playing though the game again, nad that kinda stuck out to me.

[Steinherz]

Speaking of Lilly, she does seem a bit more open in Hanako's route than her own.

She invites you to her room for tea in Hanako's, but you don't get to see her room until Hanako's birthday party in her own route. Likewise she doesn't mention having to go back to Scotland until after Hanako's birthday in her own route,

I'm just playing though the game again, nad that kinda stuck out to me.

I have a feeling the Scotland thing only appears in her route specifically because:
A: Spoilers for her route and B: Hanako's route ends before Lilly is asked to return to Scotland.

[Guest Poster]

Welcome to the club. You'll find few enough members here on the forums.
It's not only that she hid the truth from Hisao for so long, but she actually knew about the summons before she even started the relationship.
And that's when the whole theme in her arc was "honesty": If Hisao doesn't tell the whole truth or neglects to mention everything even once, he's on the road to the bad end. Lilly gets awas with a lie like that and Hisao still almost kills himself for her.

I wouldn't say the choices in the route were along the option of "lying to Lilly" vs. "being straight with her", but rather "lying to himself" vs. "being honest to himself". If Hisao consistently avoids facing up to his own issues, he'll lack the necessary dose of self-reflective ability to understand how things could have gone so wrong.

The thing that stops the good end being overly selfish is that it never seemed to me that she wanted to be with her family all that much. Sure, she obeys the summons but she was raised to do so. She never seems to actively desire the move (and who would? For all intents and purposes, they're practically strangers). It's more of a "Yeah, sure, why not?". She doesn't particularly want to move but she's not going to stay for some apathetic waste with no ambition either.

After all, with her rich affluent family, she's offered guaranteed security. If the guy couldn't even try to keep her there or so much as voice his dissent, what's he offering? A nice doormat to wipe her shoes on.

This. Lilly pretty much indicates that Scotland didn't feel like home to her and it's made clear early in the route that she has her stuff very well in order even without her parents around. She's surprisingly independant, has a clear view on what she wants in life and how to get there and she has a nice large social network right now. The main reason she's going is because her parents asked her to and she wants to be a good daughter.

I've recently started reading up a little bit on Japanese culture and mindsets and it was quite surprising how extremely well Lilly's actions fit into that mindset. Specifically the traits of demanding unconditional obedience to authority figures regardless of one's own feelings. (Lilly never felt like she truly had a choice...I don't think Lilly's silence was a test for Hisao he had to pass...her parents asked her to come, so she goes even though she doesn't want to) The other is the Japanese obsession with (the illusion of) "harmony". In other words, making sure nobody's feeling bad. Lilly never really intended to confess to Hisao, but the stress of his heart attack caused the public face she maintained up until then to crack for a crucial moment and she then decided to go along with things.

In traditional Japanese culture, not saying certain things or even making up lies to maintain "harmony" isn't even acceptable. It's expected. Lilly's decision not to inform Hisao of her impeding departure even after they got into a relationship is, by traditional Japanese standards, the only acceptable way to deal with the situation. Because telling him about it would make him feel bad and destroy the "harmony" between the two.