Shizune Arc

[Carighan]

Kutagh, I thought while playing KS that due to how ubiquitous smartphones have become now, at least partial conversation with people unable to use sign language would be easier. Is this actually something you'd agree with, or would you say it only makes it more frustrating because now you're expected to adapt to text chat?

Learning sign language myself now, but I'm quite curious whether the technological advancement changes something here.

[Zailen]

Alright, alright, where to start! Everyone seems to have left a pretty good discussion point, haha. Yes, I have picked comfort misha, It wasn't on my first playthrough however, nor my second. I picked it after getting the good end to see the bad end for the sake of completion, and it broke...my...heart. Never again. xD And it is really interesting how Shizune's family makes very little effort to actually communicate with her in a way she could understand. At least besides that abominable cellphone that she very obviously refused to use. Can i blame her? Naww. Over time, i think I can see how annoying it would be. I agree. I think over time, communication using pen and paper would really prove to just be a wall between yourself and other people, a very annoying one too at that. As hard as it would be, I think learning ASL (seeing as I'm a US citizen) would be the best choice for me if I were to suddenly lose my hearing, or a loved one were to suddenly lose theirs. There just isn't another choice in my mind for that. And MISHA! Yes, I agree fully, she really was seen in a completely different light than in the other story arcs, but for the sake of spoilers, all i'm going to say is this. I enjoyed how they really captured that the most excitable, boisterous, happy people, are sometimes to most depressed, and lonely ones of all. It really is true. The love triangle was unexpected too, but at the same time, made alot of sense. I've been through that, and in ways, I still am, seeing as I also have the issue of being unable to tear myself away, no matter how hard I try to. Because they -are- my friend. It's a very precarious position. But one I wouldn't trade for anything. My friends are valuable. JUST my two cents on everything I guess xD

[YZQ]

Ultimately, Shizune does want to change. She knows that her competitive streak is not always a good thing, and wants to have alternative ways of thinking when it comes to solving actual problems. She is aware of Misha standing by her (and becoming somewhat isolated as well).

[metalangel]

Kutagh, I thought while playing KS that due to how ubiquitous smartphones have become now, at least partial conversation with people unable to use sign language would be easier. Is this actually something you'd agree with, or would you say it only makes it more frustrating because now you're expected to adapt to text chat?

Learning sign language myself now, but I'm quite curious whether the technological advancement changes something here.

My teachers (Deaf) are almost as addicted to their phones as some of their students. Text messaging has been a revolution. One teacher just has an iPod Touch as iMessage is free.

However, writing/typing it out is a poor substitute for one's first language, whatever it might be.

[Oddball]

It gave you feels through the entire story, not just key points in it.

No it didn't. Stop lying.

[OtakuNinja]

It wasn't on my first playthrough however, nor my second. I picked it after getting the good end to see the bad end for the sake of completion

How is that possible?

[Kutagh]

As a Deafie myself... Pen&Paper is good for occasional communication, but becomes quite tedious when you have to rely on it. It just doesn't encourage spontaneous conversation. Same goes for typing. Keep in mind that it is not just about you, but also about others. The process with P&P/typing is that you have to write the whole message and then wait for the reply to be written. Though I guess since dating nowadays requires whatsapp to communicate...

Having non-spontaneous conversation can be a good thing. Forces you to think through what you want to put across to the other party. For me personally, knowing that writing or texting is the only way to communicate with a person, I sure won't complain about the speed, since it's either that or nothing.

My main issue with it is that you're reading a message, not the intonation. 'I'm going to kill you' can you see whether I was serious or joking? Whether I meant it metaphorically or literally? Plus the fact that thinking about the message is good for professional conversation, not so much for having fun with friends. Add to that the fact that group conversation with just you as deafie and others being hearing, they're not likely to transcribe everything you'd want to hear, the jokes and such. With an interpreter, you have more control over the conversation.

@carighan: Myself I am able to speak Dutch. So I tend to speak, not use text in any way to substitute direct conversation. However I tend to text or whatsapp or use other instant messaging services to chat with friends which allows me to stay in touch with them more easily.

[Zailen]

It wasn't on my first playthrough however, nor my second. I picked it after getting the good end to see the bad end for the sake of completion

How is that possible?

Easy! I saved at that point on my first playthrough, picked the choices i would have made, then doubled back to do the bad end for the sake of completion. I dont count it as a seperate playthrough since I only did one act xD

[Loonie]

Yeah...it was nifty.

I'd say one of the moreso interesting things about KS is how it allowed me to seperate feelings of sympathy from feelings of mere empathy. Shizune and Lilly, for example and unlike the other arcs, are stories towards which I empathize a fair bit, but when it comes to being moreso attached to them through feelings of sympathy? Nah...it's like a ladyfriend that you really like, perhaps fancy a bit, but ultimately you know exactly where you stand with her and that it'll always be a fun friendship.

The trick is...with Lilly I sometimes really had to struggle to pay attention, because so much of it is polite and cordial...which is fine for first impressions, but after awhile I genuinely started getting bored. With Shizune it was exactly the opposite - whenever I ran into her and Misha I could never tell what hijinx might happen next and it's what also strung me along to the end of the arc nicely. But ultimately, as I've noted before, the overall arc feels so much 'slice-of-life' to the point where it becomes hard to attach yourself to it. It's the most 'everyday' of all the arcs I'd say and in a way, as much as its beauty is in precisely that, its narrative structure just tends to evoke more empathy out of me than sympathy.

Doesn't mean there aren't some absolutely lovely moments in it regardless. The ends of Act 2 and Act 3 are both absolutely charming, the latter one especially so after making the choice for the better. That human chain really is something absolutely unique to the arc, as is of course its good ending photo.

[Zailen]

Duelly noted, but what if it's not based on sympathy at all? During no point in KS did I ever feel like I had to feel -bad- for someone. I felt for some of the situations, and I of course felt along with them, but at no point did I ever feel like "Hey, they need my sympathies." Infact, I really felt like helping them, or in the case of the Shizune arc, them helping me, was just the thing that you were supposed to do. I'm not saying that people may not feel sympathy for the characters or situations, but I am saying that there is a much much wider range of emotions and feeling that I'm sure we all felt reading the VN, which is why I think we are all here. What really drew me to Shizune's line was the fact that her story was so unique in the way of how she helps YOU, instead of the other way around. Honestly, besides her opening up a little bit, and deciding maybe change is good, you made no gigantic groundbreaking change to their daily lives. You just integrated, and in time, you belonged with them just as much as Misha belongs with Shizune. It would feel foreign without you. The arc -I- think was more to show you the insides of people who you could feasibly see exist in your everyday life. Not only that, but it really shows you the meaning of hard work. The entire story, Shizune and Misha quite literally have to drag Hisao to the Student Council, and yeah, at first he didn't like it, thought it was alot of meaningless work, and tried to wiggle out, but over time he grew used to it, and even liked it. He made a difference, and in the end, it really gave him a sense of pride that i think we all seek in life. Also. Shizune alone...I -reaaallly- loved how different she is from what people see her as. She really is a kid inside, just like everyone else. I was thinking about it on my drive to work today. I could TOTALLY see Shizune's inner...person...i picture her, with her glasses, and her hair at six years old, wearing her mom or her dads business clothes as she literally drowns in them, dragging a briefcase down the hallway, because she wants to be grown up, and important. And no matter what you say about telling her that she should just be a kid, she'd just hold her breath, puff out her cheeks, and walk past you to play office in her room xD Thats what Shizune is to me. At least that aspect of her. She really does have alot of layers to her, maybe even moreso than some of the other, more popular characters. Though, I can see how they might be more popular in the end, Shizune is a type of person to...Grow on you. For example. I ended up going with her on the first try, not because I picked HER! On the contrary...From the moment I started the novel, she picked me. Her and Misha. They became MY friends, and I just did what I'd do to show appreciation and be a good friend back...At first. You don't just abandon people like that. Not people who would just openly take you in because you were new, looked lost, and maybe even a bit scared and depressed. That was a really standup thing they did, and it shouldn't be something that Hisao should forget. Apologies for the length by the way, I'm a bit all over the place on this one. I honestly have alot more to talk about, with just their basic personalities! But alas, I'll let someone else put in their two cents first, haha. BUT! In the spirit of things, seeing as this is a Shizune thread...Lets make this interesting. Bet none of you can make a post longer than this one on this thread within the next twenty four hours.

[YZQ]

My main issue with it is that you're reading a message, not the intonation. 'I'm going to kill you' can you see whether I was serious or joking? Whether I meant it metaphorically or literally? Plus the fact that thinking about the message is good for professional conversation, not so much for having fun with friends. Add to that the fact that group conversation with just you as deafie and others being hearing, they're not likely to transcribe everything you'd want to hear, the jokes and such. With an interpreter, you have more control over the conversation.

@carighan: Myself I am able to speak Dutch. So I tend to speak, not use text in any way to substitute direct conversation. However I tend to text or whatsapp or use other instant messaging services to chat with friends which allows me to stay in touch with them more easily.

Besides intonation, there is still body language. Hell, it may be hard to read sometimes, but it's there for anyone. Besides, for the "I'll kill you" scenario, if I want to kill someone, why will I want to give a warning? However, reading body language - subconscious actions - is a better indicator. Not fool-proof, but still better.

[KeiichiO]

Shizune's route is my least favorite. It wasn't bad, just not all that appealing to me. The H-scenes were nice though (Mostly the last one)

Who's Xan? I'm Jigoro. See my picture?

Btw, as much as I hate Jigoro, that's an epic avatar!

[Loonie]

*snip*

I think I didn't quite make myself clear (probably misused the word 'sympathy' a bit). I most certainly didn't mean for 'sympathy' to mean 'feeling sorry for'. Heck, for example I really don't feel that sorry for Hanako at all (she makes as many mistakes as Hisao in her arc unfortunately), but I feel sympathy for her because it hits closer to home due to it being similar to what I went through myself once a long while back. The difference I was trying to make with those two words is...it's one thing to be well-meaning and considerate to others because you know that, on some level, they're human beings like yourself too (empathy), but it's a very different thing to live through a certain life experience, make certain choices in your life...and then come across someone who is very similar to what you've gone through/what you've witnessed in life (sympathy). And all too often what you see are also the bad parts rather than just the good ones, because the person going through it all is, for once, not yourself.

For example, if a grieving mother relates about the loss of her daughter, you can only console her if you haven't gone through something similar yourself (empathy), but if you've lost a child/loved one yourself then you can share in that feeling with her and at least let her know she's not alone in that grief (sympathy). On a rational level you'd think that consoling would be more effective, but it's funny how it tends to be the opposite most of the times. That sharing sympathy allows someone else to see how a different person handled the problems they are having now...and can learn from that example on what to do and what not to do about it.

Or...take Shizune and Emi's arcs - in both cases they wind up helping Hisao and dragging him from that rut he's initially stuck in. Now when something bad happens in Shizune's arc there's a sense of distance. I 'get' why it happens, and I 'get' why Shizune and Misha get upset and it feels great to see them overcome it or sucks to see them not overcome it.

But that's about it and it doesn't go further than that because I've quite simply not had to live with most of the things she has had to in her life. But with Emi's arc, though, that sense of distance isn't there because, again, there are people in my life that are very much so like Emi and when I play through Emi's arc, I can't *not* think about them, what they do and how they behave and how I've known at least one or two people like Emi for the majority of my life. And it's also not a sense of feeling sorry for Emi, again, like for Hanako. She's as stubborn as a mule, quite reckless and tends to really fall flat at understanding someone elses' position in regards to Hisao several times.

And yet it's all of these things that make her so familiar to me. Familiar enough that I can go through them as if they were part of my own life and treat it in that sense. It's basically the difference between remaining aware that a VN character is fictional, no matter how well written she may or may not be (Shizune), and being sucked into the story to the point whereupon going through it again...you forget that fact and treat such a character as if they were indeed a living person in our own world (Emi).

Blah....a whole dissertation on explaining my own post, I'm horrible. Anyway TL;DR Shizune's story is great, I just never could lose myself in it to the point where I'd completely forget that it was a fictional story. Which ultimately perhaps isn't even the writer's or the editors' fault. It has moreso to do with who I am as a person and what I've gone through in my own life. Heck, for the same reason Lilly's story is beautifully crafted and, unsurprisingly, this cemented its popularity along with a character most could really appreciate. But I feel the least sympathy for her because...that kind of life is boring and my life was not. it's just how it is and it doesn't change the fact that I still enjoyed her path a fair bit, even if less so than Shizune's that really was fun.

EDIT: Not sure if this post is longer than yours, but then again press ENTER enough times and everything looks longer.

[metalangel]

Besides intonation, there is still body language. Hell, it may be hard to read sometimes, but it's there for anyone. Besides, for the "I'll kill you" scenario, if I want to kill someone, why will I want to give a warning? However, reading body language - subconscious actions - is a better indicator. Not fool-proof, but still better.

Where is there body language in written communication? Because that's what you asked about and he answered.

[YZQ]

Besides intonation, there is still body language. Hell, it may be hard to read sometimes, but it's there for anyone. Besides, for the "I'll kill you" scenario, if I want to kill someone, why will I want to give a warning? However, reading body language - subconscious actions - is a better indicator. Not fool-proof, but still better.

Where is there body language in written communication? Because that's what you asked about and he answered.

As you're typing into the handphone, she can well be observing you. We were talking about written communication face-to-face.