A thought about Shizune's Path

[Xanatos]

Maybe you don't like surprises but Hisao is not you.

Isn't the entire point of Hisao for you to insert yourself into his situation?

Nope. Hisao has a personality of his own. And if his own character doesn't break the immersion, his appearing onscreen while you watch from some disembodied viewpoint will do it. The point of Hisao is to be Hisao. The point of the player is to be a guide.

It's like a tour. You're the guide, Hisao's the tourist. You can tell the tourist not to wander off into the jungle but that doesn't mean he's guaranteed to listen. And when he doesn't, he'll be raged at by Hanako eaten by tigers.

[Dr. Robotnik]

Nope. Hisao has a personality of his own. And if his own character doesn't break the immersion, his appearing onscreen while you watch from some disembodied viewpoint will do it.

You misunderstand. I'm not saying that Hisao is the player, I'm saying that the point of Hisao is for the player to experience the story vicariously through him.

The point of Hisao is to be Hisao. The point of the player is to be a guide.

But we make almost no decisions past act 1.

[Xanatos]

But we make almost no decisions past act 1.

...Excluding all the decisions past Act 1, you mean? There are quite a few. And that's why you're only a guide. You make decisions at set intervals. Outside these intervals, you can only watch what he does.

And that is the point of every character in a game. Except Pac-Man because his story is a total bummer and nobody wants to experience it. Trapped in a looping labyrinth scarfing down hallucinogenic pills for sustenance and running from imagined ghosts...

[Oddball]

But we make almost no decisions past act 1.

...Excluding all the decisions past Act 1, you mean? There are quite a few.

I think he was referring specifically to Shizune's route there.

[Xanatos]

But we make almost no decisions past act 1.

...Excluding all the decisions past Act 1, you mean? There are quite a few.

I think he was referring specifically to Shizune's route there.

Ah. Good point then.

[Muphrid]

My issues are likely entirely personal problems with how the story is going so far, but I'd still like to hear some discussion. (PLEASE spoiler if it's past Shizune act 2 or in another path)

OK. So I had this great idea in act 1 about Shizune and Hisao eventually learning to communicate through sign language. I thought about it during my first playthrough when Misha once mentioned how exhausted she was during class. Immediately afterward, Shizune bugs her to translate something to Hisao despite being able to write perfectly damn well. My genius idea is: during her path, Hisao will probably end up learning sign language from Shizune using her ability to write! I saw that sign language would probably be necessary as A) there is no Misha path and B) it wouldn't really work to have Misha translating as topics got deeper and more personal.

Does Shizune know Misha is exhausted in this particular instance? I don't recall the exact moment, but as has been said, Shizune has personal reasons for disliking the use of pads, too.

Logically, Hisao sees reason to start learning sign language. However, apparently "The only person [he] can think to ask, at the moment, is Misha?" Use your brain Hisao. There is a gorgeous girl right in front of you who both knows sign language and loves challenges. Nope, he goes and asks Misha about sign language classes provided by the school. Afterwards, he asks Misha not to tell Shizune that he's learning sign language. /facepalm

Why the secrecy? Shizune is competitive, but that doesn't mean she expects you to know sign language perfectly or even terribly proficiently right from the get-go! And saving it up as a nice surprise? BULLSHIT. You may as well start using it every chance you get, which in turn would help Hisao learn more quickly. Speaking of, apparently Hisao has a gift for learning sign language remarkable quickly. Every time they mention this fact in the narrative, it just sounds forced. With all due respect to the author, I just get this feeling of "Welp, I'm writing a story in which my main character is interested in a deaf girl, but he doesn't know sign language. Better get that out of the way quickly!" The argument could be made that Hisao is exposed to a lot of sign language due to hanging out with Misha and Shizune all the time, but I don't see that affecting his rate of learning extensively. He isn't focused on their hands, trying instead to be polite by looking at the face of whomever he is speaking to.*

It sounds like you came in with an expectation that the story would unfold one way (Hisao learning sign language through Shizune, giving them an opportunity to bond) when the writer chose something different. Hisao is very self-conscious and averse to embarrassment. I think he aimed to impress Shizune by learning sign, and he did not feel he could impress her by asking her to teach him. Nor could he make it known to her that he was learning sign without risking that he'd look foolish for his partial knowledge. Yes, this is somewhat unreasonable on Hisao's part. Yes, he would learn more quickly if he immediately started interacting, but his goal is not just to learn sign language quickly. It's to impress Shizune; it's to look good in front of her because he's starting to become attracted to her. Cluing her in or exposing himself in a nascent state of knowledge does not accomplish that.

Yes, Hisao's rapid learning of sign is contrived. There's no denying that.

I will note that I found it quite rewarding to see Hisao slowly pick up snippets of what Shizune is saying as he learns.

Then, after Hisao did all his learning on his own, building up his ability in secret for (weeks/months?), training for a grand reveal in order to make Shizune swoon or be impressed or what have you, Misha just up and tells Shizune anyway?? What the fuck. What purpose does that serve in the narrative?

Misha rightly notices that HIsao is doing a silly thing; he understands more than enough to interact with Shizune, and he's just being averse to potential embarrassment. He's spent enough time in the wading pool; it's time to swim. More than that, consider that Misha may no longer wish to be an intermediary between Shizune and Hisao. She can see where things are going, and her being a buffer between them would only slow things down...among other reasons she would have for this action that are better explained later in the route.

[Carighan]

Yeah I have to say the Misha-thing is quite understandable from a later perspective.

[metalangel]

Hisao is very self-conscious and averse to embarrassment.
...
Yes, Hisao's rapid learning of sign is contrived. There's no denying that.

Hisao would likely be a poor sign student. Sign class is all about participation, if you're afraid of making mistakes or looking silly then you'll just sit there and miss out on valuable practice time.

Also she and Misha just play so many games and tricks with Hisao in Act 1. You could probably argue, looking at each action individually, that everything they do in Act 1 with/to Hisao is aimed at getting him to join Student Council.

They're two cute girls who've got a embarrassed guy wrapped around their fingers!

Why can't Hisao join SC because he's legitimately interested?

Come back when you've finished the route and we can discuss it.

[paxslayer]

It sounds like you came in with an expectation that the story would unfold one way (Hisao learning sign language through Shizune, giving them an opportunity to bond) when the writer chose something different.

Definitely true. It was unfair of me to come in with preconceived notions and expect the story to align with my ideas.

Hisao is very self-conscious and averse to embarrassment. I think he aimed to impress Shizune by learning sign, and he did not feel he could impress her by asking her to teach him. Nor could he make it known to her that he was learning sign without risking that he'd look foolish for his partial knowledge. Yes, this is somewhat unreasonable on Hisao's part. Yes, he would learn more quickly if he immediately started interacting, but his goal is not just to learn sign language quickly. It's to impress Shizune; it's to look good in front of her because he's starting to become attracted to her. Cluing her in or exposing himself in a nascent state of knowledge does not accomplish that.

This makes a lot of sense. While I still like the idea of my version of events, this sounds very much like Hisao (as he appears in that path). While it's not what I would do, it's still consistent with his character.

In my first playthrough (Lilly) it was easy to identify with Hisao, likely because I was actively choosing his path based on my own feelings. I was able to put myself in his shoes; when Hisao said something, I could easily see myself saying the same thing given the same situation. While this made for an amazing experience the first time around, it means I have to play the other paths very differently. Thanks for helping me realize this.

Misha rightly notices that HIsao is doing a silly thing; he understands more than enough to interact with Shizune, and he's just being averse to potential embarrassment. He's spent enough time in the wading pool; it's time to swim. More than that, consider that Misha may no longer wish to be an intermediary between Shizune and Hisao. She can see where things are going, and her being a buffer between them would only slow things down...among other reasons she would have for this action that are better explained later in the route.

This is an amazing explanation for her actions. I can see her feeling like more and more of a third wheel in Act 2, and that's not a comfortable place for anyone.

Also she and Misha just play so many games and tricks with Hisao in Act 1. You could probably argue, looking at each action individually, that everything they do in Act 1 with/to Hisao is aimed at getting him to join Student Council.

They're two cute girls who've got a embarrassed guy wrapped around their fingers!

I'm not seeing your train of thought here. Are cute girls inherently conniving?

Why can't Hisao join SC because he's legitimately interested?

Come back when you've finished the route and we can discuss it.

[metalangel]

I'm not seeing your train of thought here. Are cute girls inherently conniving?

We've established how insecure Hisao is. They want something from him and are using how flushed he's getting when faced by both of them to weaken his resistance and bend him to their will.

Not all cute girls do this! Usually there's no malice but they want something and are using a technique they know will almost certainly work on him.

[Muphrid]

Hisao is very self-conscious and averse to embarrassment.
...
Yes, Hisao's rapid learning of sign is contrived. There's no denying that.

Hisao would likely be a poor sign student. Sign class is all about participation, if you're afraid of making mistakes or looking silly then you'll just sit there and miss out on valuable practice time.

Agreed. Speaking from personal experience in foreign-language class, the people who are shy about things tend to find themselves at a disadvantage. On the other hand, this is all Hisao's own idea, and if he did feel compelled to find a way to communicate with Shizune, he would've had to get over that, at least with his classmates. It's a pity that such things aren't covered in the route, but the route already has a good bit going on. At best, I could imagine a depiction of Hisao's class serving to give him insight into how Shizune's behavior is unique to her (vs. how it compares with other deaf students and what approaches they must take to effectively interact with hearing classmates and teachers).

This makes a lot of sense. While I still like the idea of my version of events, this sounds very much like Hisao (as he appears in that path). While it's not what I would do, it's still consistent with his character.

In my first playthrough (Lilly) it was easy to identify with Hisao, likely because I was actively choosing his path based on my own feelings. I was able to put myself in his shoes; when Hisao said something, I could easily see myself saying the same thing given the same situation. While this made for an amazing experience the first time around, it means I have to play the other paths very differently. Thanks for helping me realize this.

I think the lack of choices may play into that. Once you're into act two, you're more or less along for the ride except for one crucial thing. It's hard to get that buy-in that other routes can use.

Let me go back to one thing:

Also she and Misha just play so many games and tricks with Hisao in Act 1. You could probably argue, looking at each action individually, that everything they do in Act 1 with/to Hisao is aimed at getting him to join Student Council. It doesnt help that Hisao never really says "Student Council sounds interesting to me, as a character," rather saying "OMG these girls are relentless I better just join to get them off my back oh wait they are still on my back and are using my 'joining' as leverage to make me do stuff for them /sigh."

I don't think this is an unfair characterization of what Shizune and Misha do, as well as how Hisao initially responds. The bigger question, I guess, is why do Shizune and Misha do this? Why pick out Hisao for this? Remember what Shizune says at the beginning of act two: she didn't bring Hisao around to all the stalls they helped build merely as part of a game. She could tell he was depressed. I think she could tell from the moment he walked into the classroom the first day with Mutou. Getting him involved in Student Council is all part of her plan to rouse him from his depression. It's done forcefully because anything else would give Hisao ample room to back out and be left to stew on his own. It's better than them saying, "Hey, new kid, you seem kind of pitiful right now. Maybe you want to join Student Council to take your mind off things?"

I think the aggressive approach they take, while being defining of Shizune's character, also helps mask some concerns--concerns they can't know Hisao would take well if confronted directly. In fact, given that Hisao has at least a couple options to tell Misha and Shizune off pretty strongly in act 1, I don't think he would take that kind of approach well.

At the very least, I don't think Misha and Shizune's reasons for pressuring Hisao are entirely self-serving. It's a way to help nudge him out of his rut.

[paxslayer]

to weaken his resistance and bend him to their will.

This seems to further support that everything Shizune and Misha do in Act 1 is just to get something out of Hisao. /shrug

I don't think this is an unfair characterization of what Shizune and Misha do, as well as how Hisao initially responds. The bigger question, I guess, is why do Shizune and Misha do this? Why pick out Hisao for this? Remember what Shizune says at the beginning of act two: she didn't bring Hisao around to all the stalls they helped build merely as part of a game. She could tell he was depressed. I think she could tell from the moment he walked into the classroom the first day with Mutou. Getting him involved in Student Council is all part of her plan to rouse him from his depression. It's done forcefully because anything else would give Hisao ample room to back out and be left to stew on his own. It's better than them saying, "Hey, new kid, you seem kind of pitiful right now. Maybe you want to join Student Council to take your mind off things?"

I think the aggressive approach they take, while being defining of Shizune's character, also helps mask some concerns--concerns they can't know Hisao would take well if confronted directly. In fact, given that Hisao has at least a couple options to tell Misha and Shizune off pretty strongly in act 1, I don't think he would take that kind of approach well.

At the very least, I don't think Misha and Shizune's reasons for pressuring Hisao are entirely self-serving. It's a way to help nudge him out of his rut.

This is something that is very hard for me to reconcile with in this game; namely that Hisao is essentially a different person in each of the paths.

My first thought after reading the above quote was "Well, that doesn't make any sense. Hisao isn't depressed." I still don't think he is, but Shizune certainly thought he was at the start of Act 2 (IIRC?). If Hisao was depressed, that would certainly make the girls' actions justified or even noble, as you've pointed out. However, I do think it is still at least probable that Shizune was trying to quickly recruit a new student since everyone else had already been scared off.

[ProfAllister]

My first thought after reading the above quote was "Well, that doesn't make any sense. Hisao isn't depressed." I still don't think he is, but Shizune certainly thought he was at the start of Act 2 (IIRC?). If Hisao was depressed, that would certainly make the girls' actions justified or even noble, as you've pointed out. However, I do think it is still at least probable that Shizune was trying to quickly recruit a new student since everyone else had already been scared off.

Hisao does shift and change depending on which route he goes, but he's depressed at the beginning of all of them. It's most explicit with Shizune, but it's also a key focus with Rin. It's touched on in Emi's route as well. Even Lilly's and Hanako's routes, in which it's left pretty implicit, he still shows a lot of the classical signs of depression early on. That's the whole point of Act 1. After his heart attack and transfer, Hisao's just kind of working on autopilot. with the possible exception of Hanako's route (in which it could possibly be argued either way), one of the key points is that Hisao is the passive party, and the girls are the active agents of change. As the player, you choose which direction he takes, but all you really end up choosing in Act 1 is how receptive Hisao is to each of the girls' advances.

[paxslayer]

I can't claim to be an expert on depression, so I was probably wrong to make claims about whether or not Hisao is depressed. You are probably right, as Hisao starts Act 1 after being stuck in a hospital room for four months after learning he has arrythmia after having a heart attack at age 17(?).

but all you really end up choosing in Act 1 is how receptive Hisao is to each of the girls' advances.

I still have to disagree here though.

• You have to choose to push yourself to get Emi's path.
  You choose to talk to Hanako and find her at the library to follow Hanako's path.
  To get Lilly's Path, you choose to defend Lilly and go to town in hopes of seeing her.
  With Rin, you actually don't actively choose to pursue her, but I guess you choose not to pursue anyone else?
  And, for the sake of completion, even with Shizune's path you have to make the choice to wait for them to make lunch plans and inadvertently piss off Lilly in The Cold War.

(All the spoilers just contain info about Act 1, but it is pretty explicit if you are trying to get a path without a guide or flowchart.)

Having established that Hisao does make some significant choices throughout Act 1, I'm actually not 100% sure of what my point was. No matter which choices you make in Act 1, you still get pushed around by Shizune and Misha a decent amount. Making choices that send you down her/their path only increases that amount.

[metalangel]

Agreed. Speaking from personal experience in foreign-language class, the people who are shy about things tend to find themselves at a disadvantage. On the other hand, this is all Hisao's own idea, and if he did feel compelled to find a way to communicate with Shizune, he would've had to get over that, at least with his classmates. It's a pity that such things aren't covered in the route, but the route already has a good bit going on. At best, I could imagine a depiction of Hisao's class serving to give him insight into how Shizune's behavior is unique to her (vs. how it compares with other deaf students and what approaches they must take to effectively interact with hearing classmates and teachers).

It might also explain how he stops being such a milquetoast over the course of her arc... while we don't see the class itself, it could well be that he realizes he has to stop being such a pussy if he wants to get anywhere either in it or with her.

I don't think this is an unfair characterization of what Shizune and Misha do, as well as how Hisao initially responds. The bigger question, I guess, is why do Shizune and Misha do this? Why pick out Hisao for this? Remember what Shizune says at the beginning of act two: she didn't bring Hisao around to all the stalls they helped build merely as part of a game. She could tell he was depressed. I think she could tell from the moment he walked into the classroom the first day with Mutou. Getting him involved in Student Council is all part of her plan to rouse him from his depression. It's done forcefully because anything else would give Hisao ample room to back out and be left to stew on his own. It's better than them saying, "Hey, new kid, you seem kind of pitiful right now. Maybe you want to join Student Council to take your mind off things?"

I think the aggressive approach they take, while being defining of Shizune's character, also helps mask some concerns--concerns they can't know Hisao would take well if confronted directly. In fact, given that Hisao has at least a couple options to tell Misha and Shizune off pretty strongly in act 1, I don't think he would take that kind of approach well.

At the very least, I don't think Misha and Shizune's reasons for pressuring Hisao are entirely self-serving. It's a way to help nudge him out of his rut.

I was going to save saying all that until the OP finished her arc, but meh. Conclusions were already being jumped to.