Antiphony (Hanako)

[Brogurt]

I certainly did rewrite a couple lines because I got tunnel vision with the NTR, but you can't bitch and moan that it's OOC just because it's unpleasant.

Or maybe it's 2deep4u and you are the one who should give up.

[nemz]

The thing about Mendacium isn't about how Hanako became more confident, but rather about how she became more social while still retaining her insecurities.

How does that at all mesh with her whole "I deserve better than you" speech? If she's outgoing and self-hating I see a repeat public victim, intentionally self-destructive rather than naively self-improving.

Mendacium itself also was based on Hisao's similar kneejerk reaction, which included assuming that she did those things just because she wanted the dick, as well as the slightly more relevant kneejerk reaction in assuming that she is destined for trouble if she should ever become more outgoing again. A.K.A. white knighting.

If others WK her it's only because she acts like she needs one. She gets treated as less than an equal because she frankly isn't.

I tried to make the same thing evident in this fic as a potential setup to the apex where she decides to do something drastic to wipe away those insecurities, by showing that if Hisao finds the resolve to stop being a useless piece of shit, Hanako will notice enough redeeming qualities in him to not consider seeing someone else for the "support" she desires.

Hisao isn't a worthless piece of shit, he's just a typical mixed-up high school kid with a genuinely decent personality and in need of a few years of general studies courses or a few internships to decide what he wants to do with his life. If she sees him that way even in the slightest she has no business continuing this farce of a relationship.

[Brogurt]

How does that at all mesh with her whole "I deserve better than you" speech? If she's outgoing and self-hating I see a repeat public victim, intentionally self-destructive rather than naively self-improving.

Self-hating is not what I was going for, but rather that she's a confused and traumatized girl who thought that her worth was determined by who she was capable of forming a relationship with.

If others WK her it's only because she acts like she needs one. She gets treated as less than an equal because she frankly isn't.

I'm not seeing how this has any relevance to what I said, and I don't disagree with you, so okay then?

Hisao isn't a worthless piece of shit, he's just a typical mixed-up high school kid with a genuinely decent personality and in need of a few years of general studies courses or a few internships to decide what he wants to do with his life. If she sees him that way even in the slightest she has no business continuing this farce of a relationship.

Another part of the "ask" scenario had her feeling guilty for "using him", as well as a closer examination of why the relationship turned out the way it did at that point, as well as the observation that it did. The former made her feel horrible enough that she'd try to avoid doing anything that constituted as "using him" again, and the two latter were cathartic, and tore down more of those "walls" and shit.

[Bagheera]

I certainly did rewrite a couple lines because I got tunnel vision with the NTR, but you can't bitch and moan that it's OOC just because it's unpleasant.

How about because it clashes strongly with the depictions of the characters in the source material and doesn't make sense given Hanako's stated goals in the game? She just wouldn't do what you had her doing in that story. That's why it's out of character. And frankly Hisao was less beta in Hanako's arc than at pretty much any other point in the game so it doesn't make much sense for him, either.

I still don't get why you're so fixated on this concept. People do screw up all the time, but why the heck would Hanako tank one of the two decent relationships she's had in her entire life for such superficial reasons? It doesn't make any sense. That's just not who Hanako is.

Edit: As a general rule of thumb, if you have to explain your story in order for people to "get it" you're doing it wrong. It might make perfect sense in your head, but what you have there is not coming across on our end. Consider a less drastic way to make your point.

[Oddball]

I'm just curious.

Hanako has been treated like a worthless sack of shit her entire life. By the time Hisao meets her in the game, she's come to accept that as what he is.

Hisao reaches out to her when the rest of the world has turned it's back and (after some horribly bungled attempts and misunderstandings) is able to open up and admit that he needs her. For the first time in her life somebody is telling her that she's actually worth something and at the very least is trying to treat her as an equal.

So, based on that, why would she ever turn her back on him and throw that relationship away?
How do you justify her ever saying "you're the only person in the world that's ever treated me like I was worth a damn. Thanks for the self esteem boost. I think I can do better."?

[Brogurt]

How about because it clashes strongly with the depictions of the characters in the source material and doesn't make sense given Hanako's stated goals in the game? She just wouldn't do what you had her doing in that story. That's why it's out of character. And frankly Hisao was less beta in Hanako's arc than at pretty much any other point in the game so it doesn't make much sense for him, either.

I still don't get why you're so fixated on this concept. People do screw up all the time, but why the heck would Hanako tank one of the two decent relationships she's had in her entire life for such superficial reasons? It doesn't make any sense. That's just not who Hanako is.

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but did Hanako ever say ingame that she had some good reason for liking Hisao? The itty bitty neurons in my head are saying no, so I have little reason to believe that she wouldn't attempt to "upgrade" unless given a good reason not to.

Edit: As a general rule of thumb, if you have to explain your story in order for people to "get it" you're doing it wrong. It might make perfect sense in your head, but what you have there is not coming across on our end. Consider a less drastic way to make your point.

I have been made well aware of that previously, but I don't have any more plans for prologues or epilogues or what-have-you for Mendacium, so I don't have any huge qualms about clearing up the air before I continue.

[Brogurt]

I'm just curious.

Hanako has been treated like a worthless sack of shit her entire life. By the time Hisao meets her in the game, she's come to accept that as what he is.

Hisao reaches out to her when the rest of the world has turned it's back and (after some horribly bungled attempts and misunderstandings) is able to open up and admit that he needs her. For the first time in her life somebody is telling her that she's actually worth something and at the very least is trying to treat her as an equal.

So, based on that, why would she ever turn her back on him and throw that relationship away?
How do you justify her ever saying "you're the only person in the world that's ever treated me like I was worth a damn. Thanks for the self esteem boost. I think I can do better."?

"It's possible for other people in the world to treat me the same way, now that my peers aren't children, as long as I act like I deserve that respect."

And like I said, she's still far from perfect, and wants to live life for herself now that she has the opportunity. That includes making some very stupid choices that were outlined earlier.

[Oddball]

I'm just curious.

Hanako has been treated like a worthless sack of shit her entire life. By the time Hisao meets her in the game, she's come to accept that as what he is.

Hisao reaches out to her when the rest of the world has turned it's back and (after some horribly bungled attempts and misunderstandings) is able to open up and admit that he needs her. For the first time in her life somebody is telling her that she's actually worth something and at the very least is trying to treat her as an equal.

So, based on that, why would she ever turn her back on him and throw that relationship away?
How do you justify her ever saying "you're the only person in the world that's ever treated me like I was worth a damn. Thanks for the self esteem boost. I think I can do better."?

"It's possible for other people in the world to treat me the same way, now that my peers aren't children, as long as I act like I deserve that respect."

And like I said, she's still far from perfect, and wants to live life for herself now that she has the opportunity. That includes making some very stupid choices that were outlined earlier.

So basically in your mind, she has no reason at all to remain loyal to the one person that was actually nice to her and helped her when she needed it most and despite what she says in the game, she doesn't cherish the friends she has and has no problem abandoning others.

And as far as her peers being adults, she also talked about how even adults had problems looking at her when she was younger. So that shoots that idea down too.

I think the problem here is that you've somehow picked up a version of Hanako that doesn't exist for anybody else in the world. Your version is a character that has no sense of friendship, trust, faithfulness, or loyalty to anyone but herself. A character that thinks they'll get respect if they act like they deserve it then does everything possible to NOT deserve respect from others.

[Bagheera]

Yeah, pretty much what Oddball said. This whole notion of her "upgrading" at her loved ones' expense is about as out of character as I can imagine.

[Brogurt]

To respond any further would mean restating things that I have already stated multiple times before.

I will not argue with this brick wall any further today.

Thank you all for coming, and have a good night.

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[Beoran]

Hey ho, why do people here rail so against the Bro? I thought Mendacium was interesting enough as an alternate character interpretation, and the idea of this fanfic is equally interesting to me for the same reasons. Just that I'm less compelled by the writing this time. Let's chill

[Wolfstein]

Hey ho, why do people here rail so against the Bro?

Because he comes across as an arrogant douchebag who's convinced his completely OOC characters are correct, and ignores the whole community that tells him otherwise because he is, obviously, above them and they are not worth his time, and thinks he is some kind of master troll and everyone who offers constructive criticism fell into his trap.

His posts here and /vg/ mostly equate to 'lol u mad' because he has no actual way to stick up for his horrible characters, dialogue, and story ideas in general (see his latest reply to this thread for perfect evidence.)

[Mahorfeus]

I love this community.

I have no love or hate for Mendacium, but the impact it's had on everybody has been rather... evident.

[Brogurt]

ignores the whole community that tells him otherwise because he is, obviously, above them and they are not worth his time, and thinks he is some kind of master troll and everyone who offers constructive criticism fell into his trap.

You might want to consider saying things that aren't outright false if you want to be taken seriously.

[Bagheera]

Hey ho, why do people here rail so against the Bro?

Because he trolls a lot ("Misha is fat" et al) and has a very warped perception of several of the characters, particularly Hisao and Hanako.

He actually takes criticism pretty well, but the incessant "I must explain my reasoning behind this decision that didn't seem to work for anybody" schtick gets old in a hurry.