Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

[Megumeru]

Well, this topic has suddenly become crude and tasteless.

Indeed it has.

[Synthus]

One comes with the other. If you're inexperienced, you're likely going to be a shitty fuck. There's all there is to it. I don't say this with any malice.

Really isn't much of a "code of conduct" when it comes to sex. At it's basic level, sex either purely done for procreation or a form of stress relief, and I don't really see how you can be bad at either, unless the problem is in your pants. And it's not just about getting off; there's an emotional aspect to it, as well - especially if you're of the female gender... or so studies indicate, anyway. All in all, Hisao seems to do fairly well SEXXING on all routes, aside from when he's too busy nearly dying to bongswap the slimepit.

I'm assuming that you're going to be trying to satisfy your partner. If you're female, this is relatively easy. If you're male and you've been constantly bombarded by mainstream porn's bullshit, this is considerably harder.

Well, this topic has suddenly become crude and tasteless.

It became tasteless the moment you started sniping at anyone who disagreed with your take on your waifu.

[Enemy |]

Objective reasons why your subjective view is wrong.
Why do I come across this so often on the internet?

[Pickman's Model]

Wait a second here...

I've been seeing a lot of what I can only describe as "overanalysis" in this thread. Is it all pure speculation, or have any of the writers actually confirmed any of it?

Even if you read through the routes multiple times, creating elaborate flowcharts to document your findings as you go, there's still quite a high chance that you're simply reading too much into the dialogue and "action". Even for Shizune, who isn't actually a particularly deep character (though neither is Lilly), I still think some people are being a bit too round-handed when it comes to her intentions. With how the whole "Misha-situation" was handled, I can't really bring myself to believe that Shizune had it all worked out, and was gonna mend their relationship in the end, regardless of how things turned out. If she'd actually been aware of the situation, the whole "comfort Misha" choice wouldn't even have existed, cause Shizune would have had that talk with Misha on her terms - which she didn't.

Honestly, I feel that Shizune's "flaw" is a bit exaggerated at times, and really just causes things to become way too awkward near the end. I feel it would've been a lot more natural if they'd stretched it a bit further, and shown a slower, but more determined, development in Shizune's way of dealing with other people and their emotions. Really was just a big "BANG - ALL AT ONCE!" moment when you found out about Misha having been rejected by Shizune in the past. Maybe it was just to make a point out of the fact that Shizune's "handicap" isn't her deafness, but rather her lack of regard for human emotions. Still, I found it felt a bit stilted.

[Pickman's Model]

I'm assuming that you're going to be trying to satisfy your partner. If you're female, this is relatively easy. If you're male and you've been constantly bombarded by mainstream porn's bullshit, this is considerably harder.

I think Emi's been watching too much mainstream porn.

[Synthus]

Maybe it was just to make a point out of the fact that Shizune's "handicap" isn't her deafness, but rather her lack of regard for human emotions. Still, I found it felt a bit stilted.

Shizune isn't a robot, she doesn't seem to have a lack of regard for emotions. What she lacks is the understanding of how much of a lasting effect emotions can have on people, partially because of her tendency to compartmentalize events. For Shizune, an emotion's like a meal. You savour it and enjoy it, and maybe think back on it once in a while if it was really good (or bad). For people like Misha, an emotional experience is more like a hairstyle or tattoo. It sticks with you for a pretty damn long while, and it always makes its presence felt in some way or another.

[WorldlyWiseman]

Wait a second here...

I've been seeing a lot of what I can only describe as "overanalysis" in this thread. Is it all pure speculation, or have any of the writers actually confirmed any of it?

Is everyone overanalysing, or is it just Megumeru's ever-shifting essays? I mean, I made some bad posts earlier, but I try to at least highlight when I'm going into pure speculation now...

Anyway, a recent Ask thread answer from Aura said that none of the conclusions that are popping up on the forums are 'original', which I guess implies that these interpretations are ones that the authors themselves have at least considered during the umpteen drafts that they've had to make. This says nothing about how 'true' any of this speculation is, but that it may have occurred to the writers is helpful.

Even if you read through the routes multiple times, creating elaborate flowcharts to document your findings as you go, there's still quite a high chance that you're simply reading too much into the dialogue and "action". Even for Shizune, who isn't actually a particularly deep character (though neither is Lilly), I still think some people are being a bit too round-handed when it comes to her intentions. With how the whole "Misha-situation" was handled, I can't really bring myself to believe that Shizune had it all worked out, and was gonna mend their relationship in the end, regardless of how things turned out. If she'd actually been aware of the situation, the whole "comfort Misha" choice wouldn't even have existed, cause Shizune would have had that talk with Misha on her terms - which she didn't.

Honestly, I feel that Shizune's "flaw" is a bit exaggerated at times, and really just causes things to become way too awkward near the end. I feel it would've been a lot more natural if they'd stretched it a bit further, and shown a slower, but more determined, development in Shizune's way of dealing with other people and their emotions. Really was just a big "BANG - ALL AT ONCE!" moment when you found out about Misha having been rejected by Shizune in the past. Maybe it was just to make a point out of the fact that Shizune's "handicap" isn't her deafness, but rather her lack of regard for human emotions. Still, I found it felt a bit stilted.

I would actually really, really appreciate it if people here would support their statements with quotes from the game, if we're going to be all Srs Bizness about this. If it takes me four seconds to scroll past a single post, it had better be full of actual information, not out-of-place references to political history or Metal Gear Solid. And accusations like Shizune faking her work really need to be backed up, since at a glance they seem really contrary to her character.

To your view of the pacing, well, I don't agree with it being too fast. It took most of a single act for that situation to unfold, after all, that's a glacial pace for this game. It really could have been foreshadowed, though. I was really surprised at how Misha changed so quickly because of just one off-screen fight.

[Pickman's Model]

To your view of the pacing, well, I don't agree with it being too fast. It took most of a single act for that situation to unfold, after all, that's a glacial pace for this game. It really could have been foreshadowed, though. I was really surprised at how Misha changed so quickly because of just one off-screen fight.

That's sort of what I was trying to get at... cause that act took me completely by surprise (might've been intentional, though). Hadn't really gotten a good enough idea of Shizune's attitude towards emotions yet to be able to say "I saw that coming". And, even though I'd already been spoiled on Misha being a lesbian, I had assumed that if anything had happened between her and Shizune in the past, they'd no longer be as close as they appeared to be at first.

[Mirrormn]

I would actually really, really appreciate it if people here would support their statements with quotes from the game, if we're going to be all Srs Bizness about this. If it takes me four seconds to scroll past a single post, it had better be full of actual information, not out-of-place references to political history or Metal Gear Solid. And accusations like Shizune faking her work really need to be backed up, since at a glance they seem really contrary to her character.

Can't agree more with this, and it's why I'm not participating very heavily in this thread anymore. Most of the arguments being made (especially by Megumeru; I barely understand what he's saying half the time) are so speculative and disconnected from the actual text of the game that I have neither the ability nor the interest to attempt to refute them.

One thing I can refute:

I have just went through the entire Shizune route again to disprove this, but instead I found something else. Want to know? It's about Lilly being irresponsible and missing deadline for the festival's budget report--remember that argument?

Read: Shizune, Act II, 'Spring into Action'

I knew I've read it somewhere. There's a solid, concrete proof right there that she missed the deadline and requested an extension--TWICE.
And you think Lilly who has problems with aligning priorities can do better than her? What a joke. She'll end up solving her own problems and leaving others in devastation. Admirable indeed...

I called you out on this topic earlier in the thread because you constantly overexaggerate Lilly's irresponsibility with regards to this incident to characterize her as irresponsible. Now it looks like you're doing it again. Here's what is actually said in Spring Into Action:

Shizune: [You're very responsible; actions like requesting a deadline to be extended and then running all the way through to the next deadline? That's the very model of responsibility!]

That's the extent of your "proof".

Even assuming that Shizune is being completely truthful in her accusation here (let's be honest, she's not exactly an unbiased source), there's still no clear indication that Lilly missed the first deadline before requesting the extension, and we know that she didn't miss the extended deadline. She turned in the budget report on the day it was due. No irresponsibility was displayed. Shizune might view this delegation and dependence on others as irresponsible, but that does not necessarily make it so.

Also, your use of the word "TWICE" makes it seem like you're implying that either this accusation by Shizune is in reference to a different incident than the one witnessed in Act 1: Cold War, or that Lilly requested two deadline extensions, neither of which are the case. Shizune is clearly talking about the Cold War incident during Spring Into Action, and Lilly only ever requested one deadline extension (and, as I pointed out in my previous post about this topic, it's highly likely that she requested the deadline to be extended before the unextended deadline had passed, meaning she never missed it in the first place).

In short, this incident of budget reports in no way characterizes Lilly as irresponsible. Please stop trying to use it as evidence of such.

[nemz]

Egads this thread is just an ugly mess. I mean I rather like Shizune and Lilly's route somewhat annoys me, but what does one really have to do with the other? It's not a zero-sum game, guys.

[Synthus]

ITT: Two groups of people trying to out-'SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE' each other with intentional obtuseness and obliviousness.

[Roamin12]

If anyone remembers my previous post about how I wouldn't give you my life story to show you why I liked Lilly more, don't worry I won't do that, just dig into my personality, okay a little life story will be thrown into there.
Lilly struck quite a cord with me when I played her route. I always thought as myself as a very laid back, calm person, and she seemed to be that way as well, just more refined (not sure how else to put it). And later in the story, she showed her insecurities, about how she was afraid to have others think of her as useless, and unfortunately, I had, and to an extent still have, that problem. I always felt that everyone expected me to be perfect, and if I wasn't, I would seem a burden or worthless. So I easily relate to her on that. Also opening up to people is another one of her huge issues, again, like me. I have appeared almost aloof to others, never confiding in my friends and soaking up their problems and helping them with advice, or anything that would help them. This trend continued well into middle and high school, and I have only recently opened up to someone and it was barely anything, I guess I'm still not ready to open up completely. This is similar to Lilly. Then finally the trouble of standing up to parents. I still have trouble disagreeing with them on anything because of my fear of disappointing them, I guess you could say I am a coward, and to an extent that means Lilly is too.

This on the other hand, I don't have much tolerance for. If you want to call me an idiot, call me an idiot. That passive aggressive holier than thou "If I were a lesser man I'd call you an idiot," crap just doesn't sit well with me.

(Listen to the song and you'll see why I linked it) I agree with you on that, passive aggressive behaviour pisses me off.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Get back in the fight, soldier! It's not over until we beat them senseless like we did last two rounds...

Man, I'd love to. It's just that I really can't be fucked to argue with someone who'd Rush Limbaugh Shizune in a bloody argument.

Uh-huh.

Following that mentality, Lilly would most likely find 'love' in Scotland and does the same thing again--difference is, the guy will be very much pissed that she's 'second hand'.

Who's Rush Limbaughing who, now?

For the record, I adore how "to Rush Limbaugh" is a verb now.

[Synthus]

ITT: Two groups of people trying to out-'SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE' each other with intentional obtuseness and obliviousness.

Also, I really can't be arsed to pick apart walls of text with poorly-organized and substantiated speculation. This isn't directed at Megumeru specifically, the Lillybro side's been similarly guilty of that from what I saw when I skimmed through this monstrosity on my phone. It's just two groups of people trying really hard to show why their waifu's better than someone else's waifu with a nearly complete lack of substantial textual evidence, repeated instances of thinly-disguised passive-aggressiveness and personal attacks, and countless repetitions of 'NO U'. :/

Who's Rush Limbaughing who, now?

Megumeru's not Rush Limbaughing anything with that quote, he's Hack Waltering. There's a difference here.

For those not in the know, Mac Walters and Casey Hudson are purported to have ruined ME3's ending by themselves. Their brainstorming session on the ending purportedly included a line that went 'SPECULATIONS FOR EVERYONE' (I paraphrase here).

[Mysterious Stranger]

For those not in the know, Mac Walters and Casey Hudson are purported to have ruined ME3's ending by themselves. Their brainstorming session on the ending purportedly included a line that went 'SPECULATIONS FOR EVERYONE' (I paraphrase here).

Interesting. I was under the impression that the blame rested almost entirely on Hudson. "So video gamey." In any case, I think it's beyond question now that this discussion (read: conflict) has devolved considerably since it started. Perhaps a new topic is in order.

I pose this question: Who would win in a contest of romance, Hisao Nakai or Commander Shepard?