Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

[Mysterious Stranger]

To this day I can't decide if A22's a genius writer or a lucky cock. No other girl's route rewards the reader quite as much as Shizune's ('cept maybe Rin's). Lilly, Hanako and Rin are completely undemanding and serve you feels on a plate, Shizune makes you go Courage Wolf in order to earn your feels, and Rin's a grade-AAA space cadet that really requires someone with a similar history or personality to understand.

Well... you do realize that her arc has a single, blatantly transparent choice, right? In that context I don't think anyone could classify Shicchan's route as forcing you to "go Courage Wolf" to get those delicious feels.

I'll go ahead and preempt you and Megumeru by saying that the counterpoint to that would be that by having only one choice that determines your ending, the arc places that much more significance on that choice, which is already pretty difficult (well, difficult for those who are actually torn between Misha and Shicchan, anyway - easy choice for me, personally). Which is a perfectly valid point with which I'd actually agree.

Also, regarding Shizune's route being the most rewarding... no, I can't agree with that. The apex of emotion for me was during Tongue-Tied and the subsequent Look Forward/Look Aside scenes. Compared to those, the very end of the arc felt like a relatively weak denouement, emotionally speaking.

I have to admit that Shizune's was my favourite at first because of how much of a bro she was and her physical appearance, though I was rather less impressed by what I perceived as the lack of quality in the writing. I then went onto the forums and the KS reddit, did a bit of reading, and found out that a whole lot of stuff had flown clear over my head. I sat down for a re-read and started appreciating her path and her actions that much more.

I did the very same. Unfortunately, an increased appreciation for her arc did not translate to more of an emotional connection, at least for me.

[Synthus]

Well... you do realize that her arc has a single, blatantly transparent choice, right? In that context I don't think anyone could classify Shicchan's route as forcing you to "go Courage Wolf" to get those delicious feels.

I never mentioned anything about story choices here. What I was referring to was the conscious decision to read into the story and delve into Shizune's motivations. Few people bother to do that with her route. The result is a lackluster and disjointed story. Personally, I found it physically uncomfortable to have to invest significant mental effort into actively empathising with a character in what was supposed to be a wanky feelgood VN, which is why I made the reference to Courage Wolf.

Also, regarding Shizune's route being the most rewarding... no, I can't agree with that. The apex of emotion for me was during Tongue-Tied and the subsequent Look Forward/Look Aside scenes. Compared to those, the very end of the arc felt like a relatively weak denouement, emotionally speaking.

Route. I made no mention of specific scenes. Also, I believe you've misunderstood me again. What I'm trying to get at here is that there's a vast chasm between casual and critical playthroughs of Shizune's route.

Most people stick to the former because of various reasons; the most common one seems to be the perception that Shizune's too bossy and not good waifu material, with 'she doesn't get along with Lilly so I don't like her!' being a close second.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Also, regarding Shizune's route being the most rewarding... no, I can't agree with that. The apex of emotion for me was during Tongue-Tied and the subsequent Look Forward/Look Aside scenes. Compared to those, the very end of the arc felt like a relatively weak denouement, emotionally speaking.

Route. I made no mention of specific scenes. Also, I believe you've misunderstood me again. What I'm trying to get at here is that there's a vast chasm between casual and critical playthroughs of Shizune's route.

Most people stick to the former because of various reasons; the most common one seems to be the perception that Shizune's too bossy and not good waifu material, with 'she doesn't get along with Lilly so I don't like her!' being a close second.

Yes, I'm saying that with regard to the entire route, my greatest emotional involvement was in those two scenes (which, of course, focused almost entirely on Misha rather than Shicchan). The rest of the arc felt, as you said, comparatively lackluster in an emotional sense. And on my second, more critical playthrough, I didn't feel much more emotionally connected to Shizune and her story.

Fact is, I always found Misha more sympathetic than Shicchan.

[Synthus]

I said no such thing, man. What I said was that it feels lackluster if you read it casually without delving deeper and trying to understand Shizune. If we're going to have a proper discussion, you need to stop misrepresenting me.

I empathised with Misha while having absolutely no sympathy for her. I've been in Misha's shoes. It sucks, and Misha isn't doing herself any favours. Playing the 'nice guy' hanger-on and hoping the object of your affection does a U-turn is pretty much the worst way to deal with it.

Shizune hit all the right buttons for me from the very start, whereas Misha did the exact opposite. Also, I accept that this is my fat prejudice (and maybe misogyny, depending on which asspained feminists you ask) at work, but whenever I look at Misha something in the back of my head goes 'future fatty' and I end up being turned off completely.

[Oddball]

Next, Shizune doesn't pull the effort to try to change or become a better person? You serious? Have you ever tell someone directly in their face and say 'hey, you're a dick. Why don't you change into a better person?' I have, and it gave me quite a beating on my ass (and to that person's ass too. Funny enough, we became friends after exchanging blows). She mentioned it over and over again in her route how she feels wrong about how she does thing, but does Hisao ever point it directly to her what she did wrong? I don't think so. So how does she try to correct herself? By doing what she think is right and what she knows to do--that's an effort of self improvement, albeit doing it 'blindly'.

his has nothing to do with telling another person they're a dick. This is HER opening up and saying she's a horrible person then ... doing the exact same things she's been doing anyway.

She's not doing the things she thinks are right, she's doing the things she knows are wrong because that's all she knows. She doesn't take time to reevaluate herself.

Her "big revelation" comes from the fact that she doesn't know what to do with herself or how to lead people. hen right after that, with no conflict, no soul searching, or anything else, she comes right out and says she's decided she wants to help people and make them feel good. First, this is pretty much exactly what she had already said a few acts ago and second, the whole reasons she's mad at Lilly is because Lilly spent more time helping people instead of ignoring them and working on the student council.

Shizune comes across as a bit of a bitch until you dig deeper, at which point she becomes a sympathetic character.

Being sympathetic doesn't mean she's not still a bitch. You can feel bad about a person without liking them, and Shizune doesn't seem to much care if people actually like her or not in the game. In fact, she tends to push them away purposely.

That's like first date with sex--and they have just officially became a couple a few hours ago. Not to mention, it was Lilly who made the first move which irked me even further. Rather than feeling all warm and fuzzy, my first reaction was "what?"

I suppose two people that have already shown they care about each other and have just had a deep emotional bonding moment deciding to have sex afterwards is a bit hard for you to grasp.

I can understand why two people that are an "official" couple but don't actually show any real romantic attachment to each other deciding to have sex and then not mention it again for weeks would be more your speed.

[Pickman's Model]

I suppose two people that have already shown they care about each other and have just had a deep emotional bonding moment deciding to have sex afterwards is a bit hard for you to grasp.

I can understand why two people that are an "official" couple but don't actually show any real romantic attachment to each other deciding to have sex and then not mention it again for weeks would be more your speed.

Dude, really loved Lilly's path too, but please don't combo-kick the man in the nuts. Let's have a civilized discussion.

[Oddball]

I'm sorry. I apologize for kicking you in the nuts.

Even if you do have bad taste.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The result is a lackluster and disjointed story.

The rest of the arc felt, as you said, comparatively lackluster in an emotional sense. But on my second, more critical playthrough, I didn't feel much more emotionally connected to Shizune and her story.

I said no such thing, man. What I said was that it feels lackluster if you read it casually without delving deeper and trying to understand Shizune. If we're going to have a proper discussion, you need to stop misrepresenting me.

I'm not misrepresenting you. We were saying the exact same thing. On my first playthrough, the arc felt emotionally lackluster (with the exceptions of the scenes I mentioned) because I wasn't making the conscious effort to read into it. Christ, now it's starting to not even sound like an actual word. Anyway, I was saying that on my second playthrough, I did find a greater appreciation for the arc itself, but I didn't find Shicchan all that much more sympathetic.

[Pickman's Model]

I'm sorry. I apologize for kicking you in the nuts.

Even if you do have bad taste.

I decided right away to be passive aggressive about Shizune, since otherwise I'd have been banned after my first post on here.

[Doraleous]

It's a valid point, however, that calling Shizune's first H scene "jarring" or "out of place" is pretty stupid if you compare it to Lilly's (and I do see it being called that much more frequently). There was much more of a build up in Shizune's case.

Yawn, anyway, these two teams need to chill the fuck out and come enjoy a smoke with us, Rin's fans.

[Sin of my sins]

Shizune has over 100 votes? Some of you must love the idea of being under the toe of a bossy woman then, I presume.

[rydiafan]

This VN has the greatest fans ... to argue about this with so much passion and love ( myself included ) ... but i have to ask myself ... is our lives so normal we have debate about this to make them exciting?? lol

[Enemy |]

This VN has the greatest fans ... to argue about this with so much passion and love ( myself included ) ... but i have to ask myself ... is our lives so normal we have debate about this to make them exciting?? lol

You overestimate us.

It's a valid point, however, that calling Shizune's first H scene "jarring" or "out of place" is pretty stupid if you compare it to Lilly's (and I do see it being called that much more frequently). There was much more of a build up in Shizune's case.

Yawn, anyway, these two teams need to chill the fuck out and come enjoy a smoke with us, Rin's fans.

Can Emi fans join?

[metalangel]

This VN has the greatest fans ... to argue about this with so much passion and love ( myself included ) ... but i have to ask myself ... is our lives so normal we have debate about this to make them exciting?? lol

Didn't you say this before, and didn't I say to you "it's YOUR THREAD, man, you made it!".

[rydiafan]

This VN has the greatest fans ... to argue about this with so much passion and love ( myself included ) ... but i have to ask myself ... is our lives so normal we have debate about this to make them exciting?? lol

Didn't you say this before, and didn't I say to you "it's YOUR THREAD, man, you made it!".

I prob did ... i have a horrible memory lol